Ducati Monster Forum

Not going to get into my mechanical woes but the lowdown is this: M600, swapped in 750 engine. Ran great. Swapped in a 900 motor, ran ok but the motor is problematic, and I want the shorter stroke of the smaller displacement motors back. So this time I'm going for an 800 with the open loop ECU or a DS1000. I already have a source for both engines complete with throttle bodies/injectors/wiring harness etc and already know I'll need to mill out the motor mounts, modify the frame crossmember, and I've already sorted what I'm doing about the exhaust system. Basically I'm confident in bolting everything up.

There seems to be a cluster F of information regarding how to overcome the immobilizer function, some of it conflicting and confusing. Easiest, straightforward way is to find matching ECU/Clocks/Key. Going rate for a full lockset with clocks and ECU on eBay seems to be the $500 range.

My preference: no immobilizer whatsoever, regular key that can be cut by any locksmith. Whatever set of clocks I want, preferably the old school type with a FWD speedometer and a tach that wires to one of the coils. Easy, if it can be done.

So I guess what I'm looking for here is multiple solutions from you experts incorporated into one thread. I'll also use this thread to document the swap. The only other hurdle I haven't fully figured out is where the fuel pump + pressure regulator will go. The tank is an aluminum Roadracing, and it was designed to be used for EFI. Theres a circular, removable plate at the bottom with an input and an output. But I see no provisions for wiring to exit this plate. Obviously you'll need pics which I'll provide later, but first things first: how do I make the infamous immobilizer a non factor in this project.

If this info is easily available via search I apologize, but it seems I may have more than a few options here. I'm leaning towards the 800 for the better tractability, simplicity, and wet clutch for day to day commuting but my source for the ds1000 engine is very tempting bc the price is right and he has EVERYTHING except the clocks and keys.

Appreciate your input as I begin the baby steps of this project.

- J

One thing here is, I see a lot of "oh just get the ECU flashed and kill the immobi for a couple hundred dollars". But who does this service? who's the most widely recommended? who's "The Guy"?

I know the turn signal flashers are contained within the dash of these Monsters. I'm pretty sure I can buy everything I need to get over that from either Bernard at Vizi Tec or Motogadget. That's the least of my concerns at the moment. Once the ECU is "flashed to kill the immobilizer" part is done, I guess my only question is can I bolt in the motor, throttle bodies, ECU, fuel plumbing, use any stock ignition keyset (they all appear to have the same pushlock connector) turn the key hit the switch and go vvroom?

Also, kinda wondering if I should have my machinist buddy mill a "sleeve" for the engine mounts. The early 10mm frame mounts are tapped, so I'm not sure if the newer 12mm studs would fit safely.

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I recently rode a modified M750. With a light flywheel, hi comp pistons, modified airbox and FCR 39 carbs; it spun up smoothly and quickly and had a sweet balance to it. I was very impressed despite my big bore bias.

You stateside? Then forun sponsor Motowheels will reflash your ecu. Send them the ecu and fill out the order form on their site which covers your tuning options or give them a call. They will remove the immobilizer and flash a tune to suit your mods.
Sponsor Monsterparts sells Powercommander units which can be dyno tuned to your mods.

Normally a large undertank plate allows for an internal fuel pump so maybe it allows the option of carbs or the use of the oem plate? Others here will know.

I do think it's designed to be replaced with the stock plate. Tho the presence of both output and backfeed is odd. Currently it's setup to run carbs.

Stuffing a DS1000 mill in there woukd be very cool. Tho I'm going to be honest - I've ridden both the 800 and 796. Loved both motors... They rev up fast and are just plain fun. Plus I like a wet clutch, to be perfectly honest.

I'm also very curious if the 900 headers could fit/ be installed into a DS1000 engine. Then I could run my banked FCR's. I believe a 99 M900 flywheel with its trigger would swap right in, and the cases are actually already drilled and tapped for the kokusan ignition pickup bracket. Looking at the motor, it seems possible.

It depends on the intake manifold stud spacing. I've never done it, but I'm aware of threads here when split FCRs were fitted and a custom Ignitech used. Worth a search here to see how much hassle it is. A hi comp 900 carbed or 900ie motor would be easier. I like the potential of 900ie motors with their hot oem cams. At least 900 pipes would fit. I dont know if a 900ie motor takes 900 carbed inlet manifolds as a straight bolt on but if it does you have a candidate there. An M900ie with hi comps, light flywheel, Ignitech and FCRS would be a wicked little street bike. A 1000DS more so but Im not sure if its much more hassle or not. The tricky part is the ignition, but Ignitech could build you a custom unit iirc.
The Ducati specialists here will know for sure.

In the meantime I may dust off this old 750 motor and bolt it in so I have something to ride. I'd either need to completely rejet my FCRs or pop the Mikunis back on. Not sure if the FCR41 can play nice with the little 750 or not.

750s like 39s.  If the 750 is a temporary install I recommend KIS and use the Mikunis.  An interesting combo is a 750 with 800 heads, not plugand play though.

The 1000DS is the longest stroke desmodue at 71.5mm so longer again than the 900 at 68mm.

I'm going to put my 750 mill back in while I aquire the parts for the 800 + EFI conversion. If it was ya'lls $ and time - would you rejet the FCR41's (not difficult since they're on my bench) and live with a little low speed hiccups, or get a jump on selling them and fit the Mikuni's? I actually still have a new in shrink wrap jet kit from Factory Pro for my Mikuni's, but my Domino throttle which I love is already setup for the FCR's.

I'm REALLY going to miss wheelies. :(

Maybe consider this an unofficial FS thread for the FCR's, haha...they're literally like new and still have the OG box. :)

Maybe an Ignitech ignition conversion to the 800 and run it with FCR41s? Or big bore hi comp 750 with 800 heads?
In the meantime use the Mikunis on the 750.

41's are too big for a street 800/750...maybe even a 900. A full on race bike, or an 1100, maybe.

Just one guys' thinking.

Try 'em and if they're too soft down low swap 'em for some 39's.

Quote from: koko64 on October 30, 2017, 04:07:00 PM
Try 'em and if they're too soft down low swap 'em for some 39's.

You, of all people, should know that I do have 41's on my bike. ;D

 ;D FCRs are awesome.
41's shouldn't be too bad for an 800 with their 900 valves and higher comp?

Quote from: ducpainter on October 30, 2017, 03:08:23 PM
41's are too big for a street 800/750...maybe even a 900. A full on race bike, or an 1100, maybe.

Just one guys' thinking.

You actually may be right...I was one of those head scratchers when I first installed em that said; "you kidding me, right? where's the wheelie fun and instant gratification?" hours of tuning later I liked em, but not before lots of tuning and lots of other mods. Open airbox and Dynojet kit on my original 750 was my first "wow what took me so long" mod

I did LOVE how easy to fiddle with they are/were

Quote from: ducpainter on October 30, 2017, 05:21:37 PM
You, of all people, should know that I do have 41's on my bike. ;D

Pardon me. I mean't for Jake to try his 41's on the 800 motor he plans to fit. If they're too big he can swap 'em for 39's. Or maybe Jake should shoehorn that 1000DS motor in and run the 41's.

Quote from: koko64 on October 31, 2017, 06:04:21 AM
Pardon me. I mean't for Jake to try his 41's on the 800 motor he plans to fit. If they're too big he can swap 'em for 39's. Or maybe Jake should shoehorn that 1000DS motor in and run the 41's.

The 1000 would actually be easier, since headers from the elusive M1000 would bolt up fine. Exhaust is my primary concern.

Never doing carbs again unless absolutely mandatory.

By the way, I found out 900 headers fit the 1000ds. I don't think Ducati has ever changed the bolt spacing.

Quote from: LowercaseJake on October 31, 2017, 06:56:21 AM
By the way, I found out 900 headers fit the 1000ds. I don't think Ducati has ever changed the bolt spacing.

I'm pretty sure the actual port position is different, thus will not fit on an assembled motor.

Quote from: LowercaseJake link=topic=75924.msg1394227#msg1394227

Never doing carbs again unless absolutely mandatory.
/quote]

Fair enough, time marches on. Tapping a keyboard beats getting benzine laced fuel on your skin and breathing it's fumes not to mention the precise, multi dimensional tuning available with EFI. That said, I like carbrettors and I remember Chris at CCW saying 1000DS motors really responded to split single FCR41s. I guess tandem FCRs on long manifolds would sacrifice top end power for monstrous mid range torque.

Quote from: ducpainter on October 30, 2017, 03:08:23 PM
41's are too big for a street 800/750...maybe even a 900. A full on race bike, or an 1100, maybe.

Just one guys' thinking.

True. I believe FCR39s give better part throttle respone than 41's, even on a worked 900, but at the expense of a few peak hp. 39's on my worked Superlight felt snappier at low/mid rpms than the 41's on my two worked Monsters. Better for many unworked streetbikes.
I figured if Jake wanted to keep his 41's it might make for an interesting motor recipe.

Quote from: koko64 on October 31, 2017, 11:43:07 AM
True. I believe FCR39s give better part throttle respone than 41's, even on a worked 900, but at the expense of a few peak hp. 39's on my worked Superlight felt snappier at low/mid rpms than the 41's on my two worked Monsters. Better for many unworked streetbikes.
I figured if Jake wanted to keep his 41's it might make for an interesting motor recipe.

41's are sold, and I'm going back and forth with Doug Lofgren on Mikuni 38mm mods. SUPER nice guy. I'm also looking at TDMR40's, they're $300 cheaper than FCR's, and...well...I like to go the road less travelled. Kaemna and FranksMX will even customize/tune a baseline for you based on your project, which is pretty cool.

Of course the easy thing to do would be follow through with the EFI swap. Especially since I already announced "I'm done with carbs". LOL

Mainly I want my bike back together NOW which means one of the dusty motors in the corner of my garage....a 600 and a 750.

The TDMRs have a choke iirc. :D

Maybe pop the 600 in for the moment and build a hot 750 with hi comp pistons light flywheel, Flatside carbs (of the appropriate size), (maybe 43mm inlet valves out of a 900), (maybe 900 V head cams), modified airbox and some porting. I was just telling a buddy here how surprised I was with how well the motor spun up, the acceleration and how smooth it was when I tested a 750 with similar mods. Fitting 800 heads would be even better from what I have heard.

Quote from: koko64 on October 31, 2017, 11:13:40 PM
Maybe pop the 600 in for the moment and build a hot 750 with hi comp pistons light flywheel, Flatside carbs (of the appropriate size), (maybe 43mm inlet valves out of a 900), (maybe 900 V head cams), modified airbox and some porting. I was just telling a buddy here how surprised I was with how well the motor spun up, the acceleration and how smooth it was when I tested a 750 with similar mods. Fitting 800 heads would be even better from what I have heard.

Wait, you're telling me 800 and 900 heads literally bolt right on? so the only difference when finished would be boreXstroke?

Edit: disregard, Google is my friend

I learned here from others here that 800 heads bolt on, but I dont believe 900 heads do. Others will confirm. Iirc, people here have fitted 620 and 800 heads, 800 heads being preferred for their better cams and bigger valves. You will need hi comp pistons too as the 800 has bigger combustion chambers, probably to unshroud the bigger valves it has. Iirc speeddog and Duckstew built one so pm those guys, as they specialize in the marque. The cams, valve size and low comp appear to hamstring the stock 750. Check out bikeboy.org.

Unlike 900's, I have only played with one 750 but Speeddog knows them well.

900 heads won't fit on 750 stud spacing

Ferracci 11:1 drop-in 750 pistons and 695 heads on a 750 (same as late 800 heads w/7mm valves) run very, very well for a few $.

Done it twice.

Also, from my 15 years working on Ducati engines, the above is ALL I would ever do to a 750.  They're just not worth it beyond the above.

And a +1 to 900 heads not fitting onto small case motors (600, 620, 695, 750 & 800).

Quote from: Duck-Stew on November 01, 2017, 06:25:25 AM
Ferracci 11:1 drop-in 750 pistons and 695 heads on a 750 (same as late 800 heads w/7mm valves) run very, very well for a few $.

Done it twice.

Also, from my 15 years working on Ducati engines, the above is ALL I would ever do to a 750.  They're just not worth it beyond the above.

And a +1 to 900 heads not fitting onto small case motors (600, 620, 695, 750 & 800).

What kind of gains in HP/Torque could I expect from those mods? Initially planned to put in a light FW and call it a day. Maybe try out those Mikuni TDMR although I think they'd be too big for a 750 much like FCR41s are too big. The Mikuni slide carbs are 300 dollars less, and I prefer slide carbs over vacuum.

Any other carbs that fit? Perhaps some of the Mikuni round slides?

Do the TDMR carbs come in 38mm or 39mm sizes? Stick with tandem down draught carbs to keep it simple. I take it that you will run stock manifolds. I've played with TM38s but they are separate side draught carbs and there is alot of mucking around involved. The TMs are cheap as chips but any savings would be lost in set up and dyno time. I guess you would have similar issues with VMs, etc. FCR39s would be great, but yeah very pricey nowdays.

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.ebay.com.au/itm/Mikuni-TDMR-40-flatslide-racing-carburetors-Ducati-750-900-SuperSport-SS-NEW-/192026282767&ved=0ahUKEwiFm_Sbm57XAhVDn5QKHVOvB7kQFghUMA8&usg=AOvVaw2Cu1Aov-nTUEa9QmPwM5vb

Wonder if they make smaller sizes?

https://www.classic-raceshop.com/mikuni-tmr-tdmr-carburetors

38's anyone?

I reckon 38mm is a good size. Worth emailing to get a twin set made up.  I expect cheaper at two carbs.

Quote from: LowercaseJake on November 01, 2017, 11:29:13 AM
What kind of gains in HP/Torque could I expect from those mods? Initially planned to put in a light FW and call it a day. Maybe try out those Mikuni TDMR although I think they'd be too big for a 750 much like FCR41s are too big. The Mikuni slide carbs are 300 dollars less, and I prefer slide carbs over vacuum.

Any other carbs that fit? Perhaps some of the Mikuni round slides?

I never dyno'd either bike, but it felt *almost* as much as an 800.  Speeddog can attest, he rode the one...

Based on the info from you guys I'm going to pass on buying an 800 + EFI, when my 750 I already own can be made to perform about the same for less money. And like a glutton for punishment I'm leaning towards flatslides instead of EFI for the simplicity.

Interesting -  I've received responses from Kaemna, FranksMX!, and the company Ducpainter linked to. All 3 replied, 2/3 can get the 38's but they all seemed confused by why I'd want to buy them, and insist the TDMR40 is the correct choice.

Something else Ducpainter mentioned struck me - that even the FCR41's might be too big for a stock 900 engine. I think he's on to something....bigger carb, lower velocity they feed the motor at, which would explain poor throttle response and a lot of the people (inc myself) who were initially underwhelmed by the FCR's before lots of tuning. And I doubt 41's would ever be appropriate on a 750 for anything other than WOT at a track.

I know it's only a mm, but I wonder if the Mikuni flatslides perform significantly better at part throttle because of it. The info from Brad Black's website seem to support the notion that the smaller flatslides give better throttle response and torque when just cruising around.

So anyways the TDMR are available in 38mm but all the dealers seem adament about 40's being the right choice.

Lastly having tuned both vaccum and slide carbs, the latter is my preference by a mile. I'm even looking at

these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dellorto-PHM-NS1-ND1-38mm-PAIR-carburetors-Moto-Guzzi-Ducati-SS-4906-4907/172650522787?hash=item2832c5e8a3:g:8dAAAOSww9xZA~rW

What do you think, Koko? pretty sure these were OEM equipment on the early to mid 80's SS900 and 750? wonder if they'd bolt right up to my intakes?

They may bolt up.  I used to have some 40mm Dell-Ortos.  But, the Mikuni's will perform better as they're newer technology.

I guess the best way to describe how the high-comp/695-headed/750 rode is:  Like an 800 but more power 'up top' instead of torque and it suffered from the 5-speed trans.  Personally, it's my least favorite Ducati transmission that I've ever owned/ridden.

Hope that helps.

Quote from: Duck-Stew on November 02, 2017, 07:14:28 AM
I guess the best way to describe how the high-comp/695-headed/750 rode is:  Like an 800 but more power 'up top' instead of torque and it suffered from the 5-speed trans.  Personally, it's my least favorite Ducati transmission that I've ever owned/ridden.

Hope that helps.

I am def going to miss that 6th gear. But I do like a wet clutch.

Looking at my old set of 38mm Mikuni's....they are shot to $hit. Float bowl gaskets need replaced and the slides are sticky. I "know a guy" who sells these BRAND NEW for $250, complete with fuel hoses, pre-jetted for USA M600's. Was originally going to buy the Factory Pro ti kit but I may be better served just getting the new in box ones. I seem to remember the main jet being the only thing required when going to pods/open airbox; Stew, if I order an assortment of larger jets from my local Carb Parts Warehouse (GREAT company) which sizes do you recommend? I seem to remember way back when, I bought the FP kit when removing my airbox lid, used the largest jet provided, and it ran great everywhere. I just don't remember what size it was.

Altho 250 here, 20 bucks there, all to have the vaccum Mikunis I don't enjoy fiddling with, those 40mm TDMR's sure are becoming tempting. Especially since I'll be upgrading the 750 heads and adding Ferraci pistons.

750 gets bagged on but personally I loved that engine for commuting and cruising.

Quote from: LowercaseJake on November 02, 2017, 06:33:31 AM
Based on the info from you guys I'm going to pass on buying an 800 + EFI, when my 750 I already own can be made to perform about the same for less money. And like a glutton for punishment I'm leaning towards flatslides instead of EFI for the simplicity.

Interesting -  I've received responses from Kaemna, FranksMX!, and the company Ducpainter linked to. All 3 replied, 2/3 can get the 38's but they all seemed confused by why I'd want to buy them, and insist the TDMR40 is the correct choice.

Something else Ducpainter mentioned struck me - that even the FCR41's might be too big for a stock 900 engine. I think he's on to something....bigger carb, lower velocity they feed the motor at, which would explain poor throttle response and a lot of the people (inc myself) who were initially underwhelmed by the FCR's before lots of tuning. And I doubt 41's would ever be appropriate on a 750 for anything other than WOT at a track.

I know it's only a mm, but I wonder if the Mikuni flatslides perform significantly better at part throttle because of it. The info from Brad Black's website seem to support the notion that the smaller flatslides give better throttle response and torque when just cruising around.

So anyways the TDMR are available in 38mm but all the dealers seem adament about 40's being the right choice.

Lastly having tuned both vaccum and slide carbs, the latter is my preference by a mile. I'm even looking at

these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dellorto-PHM-NS1-ND1-38mm-PAIR-carburetors-Moto-Guzzi-Ducati-SS-4906-4907/172650522787?hash=item2832c5e8a3:g:8dAAAOSww9xZA~rW

What do you think, Koko? pretty sure these were OEM equipment on the early to mid 80's SS900 and 750? wonder if they'd bolt right up to my intakes?

If you are committed to the short stroke motors and want to build a hot 750 or 800, then definately go for the 38mm flatsldes and keep that air velocity up. Stick to your guns and dont let them sell you 40s. Tell them your tuner is working to a specific motor combination or recipe. If the 38s belong to the next body size down in the product range, the margin on resale may be less than the 40s.

In the Delorto catalogue there are new flatslide carbs (wickedly expensive), which shows the march of technology.  Round slides have friction, strong return springs and more chance of vacuum lock at large throttle openings.
If I wanted an 800 with efi or six gears I would spruce up my 750, sell it and buy an M800 or S2R. If a 5 speed gearbox doesn't bother you then hot up your 750.

Koko, I just committed to a set of FCR39's. Got a helluva deal and just couldn't bear the thought of those CV Mikunis on my bike. I actually already flipped em for $150, woohoo! Also the Mikuni 38's would've required I buy a used throttle and cables (ditching my fancy Domino quick turn) a choke assembly, carb sync tools etc. In the end I wouldn't have saved much.

Since he's a Keihin dealer and building these himself, I need to give him a baseline for slide position, jets etc. The baseline for 39's seems to be identical to 41's and I see no distinction between 750 or 900, not on Sudcos website, CCW's FCR FAQ, etc. I find that odd.

Since the 695/800 head swap is a future project I was thinking I'd keep the needle clip position, fuel and air screw settings the same and asking for a leaner slow fuel jet and richer main jet. Maybe a 55 slow jet and a 160 main jet, since I have a free flowing exhaust and open airbox. Just need the bike to run decent.

BTW, according to him, Keihin is discontinuing banked 39's in the near future. Not sure how true that is but he's a no BS guy.

Oh, and apparently the TDMR 38's aren't available in a banked config that fits 750/900 manifolds. At least according to FranksMX.

Quote from: LowercaseJake on November 02, 2017, 04:52:17 PM
Oh, and apparently the TDMR 38's aren't available in a banked config that fits 750/900 manifolds. At least according to FranksMX.

I'm not saying it isn't true, but the stock carbs on Monsters are BDST 38's. The spacing on the manifolds isn't foreign to Mikuni.

Quote from: ducpainter on November 02, 2017, 05:21:45 PM
I'm not saying it isn't true, but the stock carbs on Monsters are BDST 38's. The spacing on the manifolds isn't foreign to Mikuni.

You're correct, and I've also seen people in the Supersport forums with really exotic spacing plus different angles of each carb to accommodate odd sizes intakes, so I know you can buy the correct rails and such., it can be done etc.  Apparently there's just no "off the shelf" kit.

Quote from: LowercaseJake on November 02, 2017, 05:31:26 PM
You're correct, and I've also seen people in the Supersport forums with really exotic spacing plus different angles of each carb to accommodate odd sizes intakes, so I know you can buy the correct rails and such., it can be done etc.  Apparently there's just no "off the shelf" kit.

Those Supersport guys have the luxury of not having the frame cross members limiting manifold choice as us Monster riders. If the frame cross members were not in the way I would have tried short manifolds on one of my Monsters a long time ago. Anyway, over time I have reconsidered and realised that the extra low down grunt of long manifolds was better for a street bike in my highly regulated home State and well worth the top end power loss they impose. For a maximum effort motor I would go short manifolds (or buy an 1100Evo) ;). Long manifolds give the desmodue very good, real world, streetable power characteristics. However, with careful intake tract/airbox mods, you can mitigate some of the top end power loss of long manifolds. http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=75652.msg1389559#msg1389559

Good score getting a deal on the FCR39s. Going hi comp pistons and light flywheel, or waiting until you do the head swap?

Jet sizes?  I don't recall things THAT far back...  :P

Quote from: koko64 on November 02, 2017, 06:33:40 PM
Those Supersport guys have the luxury of not having the frame cross members limiting manifold choice as us Monster riders. If the frame cross members were not in the way I would have tried short manifolds on one of my Monsters a long time ago. Anyway, over time I have reconsidered and realised that the extra low down grunt of long manifolds was better for a street bike in my highly regulated home State and well worth the top end power loss they impose. For a maximum effort motor I would go short manifolds (or buy an 1100Evo) ;). Long manifolds give the desmodue very good, real world, streetable power characteristics. However, with careful intake tract/airbox mods, you can mitigate some of the top end power loss of long manifolds. http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=75652.msg1389559#msg1389559

Good score getting a deal on the FCR39s. Going hi comp pistons and light flywheel, or waiting until you do the head swap?

I read about your airbox mods way back as a lurker, Koko. Very impressive. I was considering stuffing the larger airbox from an S4R or other EFI bike in there, with a removed lid of course. I would just need to make sure the FCR adapters fit the rubbers. Battery is a teeny weeny Antigravity which can go pretty much anywhere, same with my ignition box.

For me the choice to get the 39's instead of just bolt on the stock 38's was pretty easy...new throttle cables (I HATE measuring and making my own), the (IMO) mandatory Factory Pro kit or at the very least the nickel plated emulsion tubes, scouring ebay for a choke + lever or again making my own..adding up the cost and time it just wasn't a significant savings. Plus, tuning of the FCR's is so linear, easy to understand, jets and screws easier to access and so forth. Plus once you feel the previously imperceptible difference in throttle response between a slide carb and vac carb it's obvious from that point forward. At least to me. And, FCR's are EASY to resell when you're finished with em.

For now I will just drop in a set of Ferraci pistons, except their website shows "out of stock". I hope they didn't discontinue them? maybe attempt a shadetree port + polish while I'm in there, cam timing and that's it. I've subscribed to eBay listings for 800 and 695 heads.

The logic behind Stu's comment regarding what he'd do to a 750 engine before calling it quits applies equally to a 900 based on my experience. Besides the extra gear and dry clutch I don't find it to be vastly superior, and it's lazier which I don't like. I also don't like dry clutches...blasphemy, I know.

Only question I really have now is who sells a light flywheel for a 2000 750 engine? there were only 2, maybe 3 years where there was even a carby motor with 3 phase alternator....the 900/750 in 1999 and the 750 from 99-01. I prefer aftermarket aluminum ones, because in my mind if tragedy strikes and the nut backs off, the softer aluminum will take the damage instead of the crankshaft. Regardless, I NEED a light flywheel.

BTW I emailed Chad @ Sudco (super helpful dude) and he responded with the FCR39 baseline for SS750/M750. The ONLY DIFFERENCE is an extra quarter turn of the fuel screws. Seems ridiculous to me.

I still would've liked to see if these fit:https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dellorto-PHM-NS1-ND1-38mm-PAIR-carburetors-Moto-Guzzi-Ducati-SS-4906-4907/172650522787?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

Nichols make 3 phase carb flywheels iirc, or you could have yours machined down. MPL (German company I think) also do flywheels.

FCRs win hands down. ;D

You might find that hi comp pistons, light flywheel, airbox mods, FCRs and some porting are all you need.
That's what Nibor did and his M750 goes great. Imo, it's worth porting the intake manifolds as they can be pretty rough as cast with mirror shiny patches in some sections and then casting dags and ridges in others. You can radius the bends, open the volume, match the ports and finish the walls in a satin, honed texture.

Koko, what baseline do you suggest I have my local carb shop build these to? The baseline according to Sudco:

155 mains,
200 main airs,
EMT needles in the 3rd,
60 slows,
1.5 turns out on slow air screws
and 1 turn out on fuel screws.

My initial thoughts are since I'll be aquiring an airbox soon but presently only have pod filters is keep everything the same as above, except:

160 main jet
55 slow jet

Needle clip and slow air screws as recommended by Sudco.

I'm basing this on needing a HUGE jet change when I originally chopped my M600 airbox top and cored the cans, and the fact that 60 slow jets were so pig rich on my 900 that they literally soaked my spark plugs with petrol.

http://www.ducati-kaemna.de/schwungrad-alu-ergal-evo-superleicht-nippon-denso-lichtmaschine-ab-98.html

For a 900 for the same mods, I note that 39s need larger pilot jets, lower needle position and smaller main jets.
For example:    
                      FCR39    FCR41
Pilot               58            50-52
Needle          #3            #5
MJ                 160         165

That's just my experience with the half a dozen 900's I've tuned. Note, these are hi comp 900's with porting and fully open airboxes on premium kangaroo fuel.

Thats a fair "guestimstion" for your 750. I have only played with one 750 with FCRs but we strangely found the 60 pilot to work and are running 155 main jets with a half open, "expanded" airbox. The filter is a little larger than the holes from the snorkles removed so we used the 155s (baseline from a buddy). 160s would be a fair guess with a fully open airbox.
http://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_150974634515312&key=7380040348cb056f0e988195afaf9852&libId=j9kfze8f01000c6m000MA6pxldmta&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ducatimonsterforum.org%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D75652.0&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F150482584%40N03%2Fshares%2Fa4j6Dw&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ducatimonsterforum.org%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D75652.15&title=Modified%20Carbs%20and%20Airbox%20Mods.&txt=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F150482584%40N03%2Fshares%2Fa4j6Dw


60 pilot jets in 41s on a 900 couldn't make a mile without fouling and stalling. The better the porting the worse it was, but thats our fuel too.

Speeddog gave me a good baseline from tuning his 750 so he might chime in.

Quote from: greenmonster on November 03, 2017, 06:24:23 AM
http://www.ducati-kaemna.de/schwungrad-alu-ergal-evo-superleicht-nippon-denso-lichtmaschine-ab-98.html

GM those don't appear to have the ignition triggers I'd need. 99-01 were oddball years for the carby Monsters. Nichols might be the only source but they are hella pricey. I will email them tho, that's a fair price. Except they look identical to the SSR ones, I hope they aren't the same.

Here's Kaemna's flywheel for carbies:

http://www.ducati-kaemna.com/catalog/ducati/supersport-750-900-1000/motorenteile-engine-parts/schwungrad-ergal-900-ab-98-vergaser-monster.html

Quote from: Speeddog on November 04, 2017, 08:50:34 AM
Here's Kaemna's flywheel for carbies:

http://www.ducati-kaemna.com/catalog/ducati/supersport-750-900-1000/motorenteile-engine-parts/schwungrad-ergal-900-ab-98-vergaser-monster.html

Thanks, that's a very reasonable price compared to Nichols... Finger is on the trigger. I already ordered a pair of MIVV X-Cones and am having some stock headers ceramicoated.

Vergaser flywheel. [thumbsup]

I'm getting excited about this build (vicarious pleasure). Time to set up a build thread in the mods & accessories section.

Quote from: koko64 on November 04, 2017, 07:16:42 PM
Vergaser flywheel. [thumbsup]

I'm getting excited about this build (vicarious pleasure). Time to set up a build thread in the mods & accessories section.

It won't be anything special for awhile. :) just a super clean, low mileage stock 750 engine with a light flywheel, stock heads until I decide on what recipe to use (Ferraci pistons plus 695 or 800 heads, need to determine which - I may even draw the conclusion that the Ferraci pistons are better off in the 750 heads. I refuse to get carried away with throwing money at this 750 engine, I loved everything about it while I had it EXCEPT the low low top end ceiling and the inability to power wheely - I love to power wheely and am not very good at clutch wheelies. If the light FW, flatslides and 14t sprocket give me at least first gear wheelies I'll be fine.

You guys will like the bike though...glossy black powdercoated frame, hard anodized S&P/Ducati Performance rearsets, TONS of Roadracing parts including alloy tank that I had hand finished to a brushed look (hate mirror/chrome finishes) Roadracing clocks, DP alu cowl, forged wheels, the trusty Brembo 4 pot/2 pad dual calipers were disassembled, coated black and rebilt, CORE MOTO stainless hoses, Penske shock, hard anodized AEM triples (lots of black, brushed raw aluminum, hard ano gray accents). What's odd is I'm oddly relieved that the 900 bit the dust...it was an aggravating engine from the very start and took my bike from rocksteady reliable to problem after problem.

Tho, since I'm already waiting on parts to arrive from Italy, the headers to come back from ceramiccoat, and the engine is on a stand...it might be rather silly to not to the headwork before installing the engine in the frame. I really need to learn how to be patient. If any of you guys get a lead on Ferraci pistons lemme know...the "currently unavailable" notation on the Ferraci website is concerning.

Sounds good. Some nice items there [thumbsup].

It is certainly a breeze doing engine work on the stand and out of the bike. Monsters are one of the easier motors to work on in the frame, however.

I am biased towards large capacity grunt, but the way Nibor's bike runs was a wake up call to my big bore bias.
It seems that these short stroke motors tolerate less flywheel mass than the long stroke donks. This all helps response (and wherlies).
If 695/800 motors or heads are cheap enough in your locale then cool, but down here 800 motors cost thousands of dollars so 900 V head 43mm inlet valves in 750 heads ported towards low lift flow and hi comp pistons would work quite well. If more cash was available then dialed in 900 V cams and diffrrent porting.
Nibor's bike has stock cams and valves and runs great. It hasn't been dynoed yet but I was impressed.

A guy I used to ride w/in SoCal begged and begged me to install 11:1 Ferracci piston in his STOCK HEAD equipped 750.  Finally, mostly to shut him up, I did it.  What a mistake.

The stock 750 heads lack the flow to get air in and out which is used to somewhat reduce the static compression ratio of the pistons.

The bike made more torque, yes.  But to do so, it took the highest octane fuel and the torque was over-and-done-with in short order.  Bike also ran very, very hot.  My stock headed 750 ran just as hard as his high-comp bike did.

I used to cut apart 750 heads to make "demo" units so that people could understand how desmo works (w/o the top of the head getting in the way).  That's about the most practical use for them.  There isn't anything about the 750 head that's good.  Nothing. 

695 heads run 7mm valves, same as the later 800 heads do.  Get them if you get the pistons.  Consider it a package deal.

Quote from: Duck-Stew on November 06, 2017, 06:40:37 AM
A guy I used to ride w/in SoCal begged and begged me to install 11:1 Ferracci piston in his STOCK HEAD equipped 750.  Finally, mostly to shut him up, I did it.  What a mistake.

The stock 750 heads lack the flow to get air in and out which is used to somewhat reduce the static compression ratio of the pistons.

The bike made more torque, yes.  But to do so, it took the highest octane fuel and the torque was over-and-done-with in short order.  Bike also ran very, very hot.  My stock headed 750 ran just as hard as his high-comp bike did.

I used to cut apart 750 heads to make "demo" units so that people could understand how desmo works (w/o the top of the head getting in the way).  That's about the most practical use for them.  There isn't anything about the 750 head that's good.  Nothing. 

695 heads run 7mm valves, same as the later 800 heads do.  Get them if you get the pistons.  Consider it a package deal.

DS, thanks you just saved me a lot of money, time and frustration. The issue I'm having is deciding *which* heads to go with and with *what* pistons. Various forum anecdotes talk about compression dropping big time if doing an 800 head swap with 750 pistons, *even 11:1 Ferraci pistons*. So, just to clear some things up and I guess start over;

I want the quickest, easiest, most inexpensive route to a modest bump in top end power for the 750 and the ability to easily power wheelie in first gear. Porting the stock 750 heads sounds like a waste of money. So - what about 695 or 800 heads, untouched from stock aside from a nice valve job, plus 800/695 jugs and / or 800/695 pistons?

Honestly at this point I'm inclined to fit the already smoothed out long manifolds/intakes I already have, install a light flywheel + 14t sprocket and call it a day. I would hope the cleaned up rough casting of the intakes + LW flywheel + FCR39's would be sufficient for occasional hooligan behavior.

But the engine is sitting on my bench right in front of me. If I can source 695/800 heads complete with jugs and pistons for cheap (a few hundo) and significantly improve the performance of the bike it's a no brainer. I bet I could find a low mileage set of jugs complete with pistons AND their respective heads for cheaper than the Ferraci 750 pistons alone.

Also, somewhat off topic - does anyone know the size and thread pitch of the OEM flywheel nut on 98+ Ducs? it seems smarter to buy a pair of inexpensive hardened jam nuts from McMaster Carr (if possible) than $40 on the Nichols and other jam nut pairs being offered.

Quote from: LowercaseJake on November 06, 2017, 08:29:50 AM
<snip>
I want the quickest, easiest, most inexpensive route to a modest bump in top end power <snip>

Fix the 900 and re-install it. ;D

Quote from: LowercaseJake on November 06, 2017, 08:29:50 AM
DS, thanks you just saved me a lot of money, time and frustration. The issue I'm having is deciding *which* heads to go with and with *what* pistons. Various forum anecdotes talk about compression dropping big time if doing an 800 head swap with 750 pistons, *even 11:1 Ferraci pistons*. So, just to clear some things up and I guess start over;

I want the quickest, easiest, most inexpensive route to a modest bump in top end power for the 750 and the ability to easily power wheelie in first gear. Porting the stock 750 heads sounds like a waste of money. So - what about 695 or 800 heads, untouched from stock aside from a nice valve job, plus 800/695 jugs and / or 800/695 pistons?

Honestly at this point I'm inclined to fit the already smoothed out long manifolds/intakes I already have, install a light flywheel + 14t sprocket and call it a day. I would hope the cleaned up rough casting of the intakes + LW flywheel + FCR39's would be sufficient for occasional hooligan behavior.

But the engine is sitting on my bench right in front of me. If I can source 695/800 heads complete with jugs and pistons for cheap (a few hundo) and significantly improve the performance of the bike it's a no brainer. I bet I could find a low mileage set of jugs complete with pistons AND their respective heads for cheaper than the Ferraci 750 pistons alone.

If you want my direct instructions:  "Honestly at this point I'm inclined to fit the already smoothed out long manifolds/intakes I already have, install a light flywheel + 14t sprocket and call it a day. I would hope the cleaned up rough casting of the intakes + LW flywheel + FCR39's would be sufficient for occasional hooligan behavior."

Do that. ^^^

OEM 695 pistons are too tall, and OEM 800 pistons are too short, to work with the 750 crank, as the strokes are shorter and longer, respectively.

695 heads are identical to the 7mm valve 800 heads, same part numbers, same valves.

https://www.hordpower.com/gallery3/index.php/Dyno-Charts/album07/750ss
Hi comp 750's. (JD Hord), with stock Vs 900V cams.

Then he goes nuts.. 900 inlet valves, porting, 900 cams, big bore pistons.
https://www.hordpower.com/gallery3/var/albums/Dyno%20Charts/album07/795ssIgnition.jpg?m=1416607249

You guys are lucky to get 695/800 motors/ heads so cheap.

Quote from: koko64 on November 06, 2017, 12:31:02 PM
You guys are lucky to get 695/800 motors/ heads so cheap.

You could "hit" one of us up and have some online auctions watched for you.  Then, if we win, it's a personal shipment from a friend to another friend...

Perhaps that's an option, just sayin'...

That's a cool option. [thumbsup]. A whole 800 motor with 6 gears would be cool.
Sounds like it's not too hard to fit some Ferracci pistons and 800 heads (with swapped cam pulleys).
I wonder how consistent the port casting has been between model years? Iirc, Lofgren reckons the early 900V heads were worse than 93 - 99V heads in the ports and then 900ie heads a bit better again. Is it possible this is the case with 750 heads over the years?

Quote from: koko64 on November 06, 2017, 02:10:49 PM
That's a cool option. [thumbsup]. A whole 800 motor with 6 gears would be cool.
Sounds like it's not too hard to fit some Ferracci pistons and 800 heads (with swapped cam pulleys).
I wonder how consistent the port casting has been between model years? Iirc, Lofgren reckons the early 900V heads were worse than 93 - 99V heads in the ports and then 900ie heads a bit better again. Is it possible this is the case with 750 heads over the years?

I dunno...  Could be.  I'm guessing that Ducati improved castings by about 2000-2002 and held at least that same level of improvement going forward.

Quote from: Duck-Stew on November 06, 2017, 11:23:29 AM
If you want my direct instructions:  "Honestly at this point I'm inclined to fit the already smoothed out long manifolds/intakes I already have, install a light flywheel + 14t sprocket and call it a day. I would hope the cleaned up rough casting of the intakes + LW flywheel + FCR39's would be sufficient for occasional hooligan behavior."

Do that. ^^^

Will probably do this I guess, but I was sorta hoping for a fun winter project that didn't break the bank and, may not be worth the *time*, would be worth it to me, at the right price.

DP I've ridden bone stick 900's compared to a 750ss and was very underwhelmed by the difference in power. But that's just my opinion. And I already parted out my "hot" 944 in disgust.

I'll probably never chase power out of one of these old Ducati twins again tbh. The fun lies in how unique classic Monsters are and how fun they are with well sorted suspension and brakes. Next time I crave power I'll buy one of the many cheap gixxers "laid down on a test ride" (yeah right) in the local craigslist. And for Italian thunder I like the new Brutale Dragster.

BTW I stripped the heads and jugs today. Heads are in fine shape, the pistons have play in every direction up down sideways. Evidence of rod end bearing bits in the sump. And I noticed for the first time my vertical head wasn't aligned on the studs evenly. I wonder if that misalignment  stressed the big end bearing on the vertical head and eventually caused it to blow. I wouldn't think that would keep the crank from moving a single mm, and there's also no damage to the cylinder walls but what do I know. In retrospect I probably shoulda bought a cheap 900 bottom end and transplanted the top end. But I got a nice price for the heads, enough to pay for the new engine and I don't hate the 750 motor, at all.

Nichols no longer offers or manufacters the 3 phase carbie flywheel, but instead of ordering the one from Kaemna (which I'm sure was fine quality and priced right)  I tracked down a brand new Nichols for $200 which includes the lock nuts.

Other updates include the L & R engine covers being dropped off at my coaters, eBay headers scrubbed down, prepped and primed for VHT, and a pair of MIVV X-CONES.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/lAEiM2ONvXZ5OMF42

https://photos.app.goo.gl/qNcQB3pzhjBjhqr03

Genial Motor Italia supplied the exhaust (great service and only 2 business days door to door), they are wonderful and highly recommended now that PJ's Parts is no more (RIP, great company also).

How's it goin'?

Hit a lump in the road. I attached the new Nichols FW and simply... Can... Not... Get it to slide onto the crank properly. In my frustration, I accidentally pulled the primary crank gear loose. I know it rides on a keyway so can only go one way but now I'm nervous I screwed my cam timing up and am considering hiring this job out along with new belts and a valve adjustment. Here a photo - I see no marks indicating where this gear should line up in accordance with the larger primary:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/uIP5mB2jOoE3g36h2

Side covers are at my powder coaters, I figured I couldn't possibly F this "easy" job up but apparently I did. The Nichols FW with the sprag bolted on simply will not slide up the crank and seat its gear with the starter motor gear. I've no idea what I could be doing wrong and I'm afraid of damaging the delicate aluminum splines on the FW.

But the cam timing potentially being off now is a bigger concern. Actually they are both concerning.

Also I realize I'm supposed to align the dot on the FW with the groove in the crank but which one? There's 2 grooves as opposed to only one on my older single phase motor.

New FW assembled to the sprag according to Nichols instructions

https://photos.app.goo.gl/d4W3kUsed9MX6U9n1

The large gear slides on no problem and aligns with the starter motor gear perfect. The gear also slides into the sprag, which is bolted to the FW, NP. The whole assembly however will not easily slide black into place. It stops just short of being snug with the small starter motor gear. I removed the entire ignition trigger bracket and made small sharpie dots so I'd be sure to get it back where it was.

Searched the webz and apparently I'm the only person having difficulty installing a damn flywheel. Smdh, pathetic.

I figured out the correct "notch" as there's really only one, the damn thing just will not seat into the flange of the starter gear... I'm completely flummoxed.

How far 'out' is the flywheel assembly sitting (as opposed to where it “should be”?

Is it ~1/4”?  Is it ~1/8”?

There's a caged roller bearing and a thin flat washer in the mix too.  Try putting the caged roller bearing on the crank now so that it fits into the small recess in the crank timing gear and then slide the thin (and important) washer over the caged roller bearing so that it sits flush with the crank timing gear.  Now try installing the flywheel assembly.

Quote from: Duck-Stew on November 14, 2017, 11:08:36 PM
How far 'out' is the flywheel assembly sitting (as opposed to where it “should be”?

Is it ~1/4”?  Is it ~1/8”?

There's a caged roller bearing and a thin flat washer in the mix too.  Try putting the caged roller bearing on the crank now so that it fits into the small recess in the crank timing gear and then slide the thin (and important) washer over the caged roller bearing so that it sits flush with the crank timing gear.  Now try installing the flywheel assembly.

I'm determining where it should be, by whether or not the starter clutch gear is aligned with the starter motor gear. Here's a couple photos I took before removing the original FW:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KTAgEMK1iP1vUH1j2

Second pic is exactly what I *can't* accomplish with the Nichols FW, note the starter clutch gear and the starter motor gear are happily mated:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/C1b8wGR9cSySxaBp1

Where I've drawn several arrows is the primary gear that rides on the crank, that I accidentally dislodged. And I'm positive I didn't put it back the way it was before. This is obviously going to affect cam timing:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/yMfK5M1MJdrUOonE2

I've never changed belts or done valves myself so I don't have any idea how those gears should align, and I don't see any obvious marks to line up. But since that bigger gear rotates the belts, I'm betting it important to get it right.

That's a new self inflicted wound. As for installing the FW: yes there's a caged bearing with a top hat flange inside that rides against the thin and important washer you're talking about. I've tried the following 2 methods unsuccessfully:

Install the starter clutch gear first, over the caged bearing/flange/washer/ assembly, then attempt to slide the new FW onto the crank, with the sprag going into her proper home around that assembly send the starter clutch gear aligned with the starter motor gear. No dice.

Install the large starter clutch gear snugly into the sprag, then attempt to get the whole unit to slide over the caged bearing. No joy.

So what you're suggesting is to basically put everything on at once and fitting it all as one piece? Sprag clutch gear flange inside the sprag, caged bearing and it's flange on the other side, maybe use a dab of grease on the tin washer at the end of the crank to hold it in place while I try this?

What about the misalignment I caused with the primary gear sliding off its keyway? Won't my timing be completely off now?

Thanks... I know it's obvious I'm ignorant but I'm willing to learn... If I can safely DIY this job I'd much prefer that route...

Go to Ducati Omaha's website.  There's a link to OEM parts.  Look up a 2001 M750 (same as yours b/c it's carbureted).  The parts breakdown should outline how each part gets assembled.

Try removing the crank timing gear and see if there's anything back there causing it not to seat flush against the crank.

I think you do need a Haynes manual.
You seem eager to learn.
Not all things are easily explained here in our Forum.
Tinkered w bikes f over 30 years now, I use manuals almost every time, to check torque,
avoid "I can myself" dumb mistakes etc.

Thanks guys, I have the Haynes manual as well as one by LT Snyder and a parts diagram I downloaded, printed and coil bound.

Stew - when I started thus job everything inside the case was virgin... I could tell by the thin, perfectly laid down bead of three bond on the case. Are you suggesting I remove the small cog that rides on the crank that I already accidentally dislodged? It only got dislodged in the first place by my inability to get this new FW on.

Most importantly right now, how do I make absolutely certain I have that cog properly aligned with the larger gear that rotates the belts? If I F that up I'll F my engine up.

Thank you all for your help and please refer to the photo links I posted. Getting the ignition trigger bracket bolted on properly will be another adventure since my sharpie marks immediately got washed off with oil, smh. But right now I gotta make sure that crank bearing is right before I worry about anything else, it's by far the most crucial part of this adventure.

As this "what should've been a simple job" becomes more complex, I'm becoming even more determined to do more than simply put a light FW in this engine. Belts are coming off for a valve job and replacement anyway, I gotta do more... I hate the thought of riding a stock motorcycle.

http://www.mad-ducati.com/Technical/Engine/AlternatorCover2.html


(http://www.mad-ducati.com/Technical/Engine/AlignDots_M.jpg)

Yes. Remove the gear and look behind it.  The photo greenmonster posted is of an older bike but the dots are similar for your engine.

Quote from: Duck-Stew on November 15, 2017, 07:58:11 AM
Yes. Remove the gear and look behind it.  The photo greenmonster posted is of an older bike but the dots are similar for your engine.

Stew, the bike was basically virgin inside, I don't even think the stator cover had ever been off. Removing that gear shows nothing strange, no foreign objects etc. Just the primary bearing.

As far as those alignment dots... It appears as long as I count 4 teeth from where they mesh on each gear, like the photo shows I'm golden. Hopefully that's the same as on a newer 3 phase bike.

Later tonight I'll attempt to put everything, cage bearing with flange and all inside the sprag and hopefully get it on as one unit. I added some grease to the sprag as it does take a little wiggling and rotating for the starter gear flange to smoothly enter the inside of the sprag. I just think it's a matter of wiggling this chit into place, and the tolerances are tight so there's not much room for error.

Also, Stew... That main crank bearing sits fine and aligns perfectly with the cam belt pulley gear.

In your pic,
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPS14NFpUZxkftDCqPMBO2nZOyZNrm458CRc4M5deJHLqyP2zY4cgq2Hh748ZCh6w/photo/AF1QipPKg0HeI1sWGW74peMcBAg0ASRV2cEK2Fz-Ij94?key=dXJuNXpGcWVTWE50dVN6SnI0RUg5WVJtcE5URktn
I see dots on both cogs.

Starter crank cog & starter motor cog do not need to align, just hook up.
Cogs in my pic need alignment.
AND, if cam drive gear is properly mounted, crank cam gear can`t be wrong, due to its key.
And you haven`t unmounted cam drive gear or?

And do secure the big washer in my pic w grease on the back so it doesn`t slip forward.
If so, crank end will swing abit at end and kill bearing in alt cover.

Quote from: greenmonster on November 15, 2017, 07:28:39 AM
http://www.mad-ducati.com/Technical/Engine/AlternatorCover2.html


(http://www.mad-ducati.com/Technical/Engine/AlignDots_M.jpg)

OK so should the camshaft and crankshaft dots align, or be spaced the same number of teeth as in the photo?

Nevermind, just realized what a foolish question that was. In other words, looking at this photo, am I good?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/X2pKuElN5vQiJ70l1

Yes.

Ok the engine rotates fine, nothing colliding. I'm comfortable I lined the gears up correctly. But back to the FW. This is as far as it'll go. It will engage the gears, but it doesn't sit flush as you'd expect and want it to. When I install the large sprag gear, it has no issue meshing with the teeth whatsoever. Another pic;

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XU4pQ0e85ojgcb7p1

I can push the large starter gear inwards towards the engine and the gears now mesh, but it doesn't seem like there should be any play between the large gear and the FW. The flange and caged bearing are installed exactly as the instructions state.

Here's the view of the FW.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tvnub32yXy8zKG8Z2

Have you tried installing the nut to see if all the play goes away?

Quote from: ducpainter on November 15, 2017, 12:52:02 PM
Have you tried installing the nut to see if all the play goes away?

No.... To me that seems too much like "forcing the issue" and bad things happen when I do that. It seems to me the flanged spacer is too tall, it should be flush with the inside lip of the large gear. Tightening the nuts won't change that. But if you look at my last pic of the spacer, caged bearing and thin washer installed and this looks right to you well sure I'll tighten the nut down (not the full torque) to see if it removes the play.

DP you just nailed it. I put a little torque on the nut, play is gone, FW installed. Now to remove the original nut and install the dual lock nuts.

I was being to careful, which is the opposite of how I normally operate. Now just gotta install this bracket and hope I get the alignment correct and the air gap correct.

THANK YOU

Well that's lame. Lock nuts are much bigger than the OG nuts and I don't have a socket that big

I know the OEM nut has a bad rep, but I've never seen one that was properly torqued, and installed with red loctite, come loose.

+1.
ALWAYS clean threads thoroughly, red Loctite and correct torque.

Be sure to align your flywheel to the outer notch on the crankshaft.

As far as the lock-nuts go, here's my $.02:  If you already have them, might as well use them.  If not, clean threads, plenty of red loc-tite and set the torque to the factory value.

Those jamb nuts took a 36mm socket!! Who the F has that laying around?? Luckily I have this absurd 3/4 "jumbo" set from Harbor Freight, I did the penny trick and used a 2 foot breaker bar plus lots of loctite.... I'd say I'm good... I hope. :)

Buy a torque wrench.

Quote from: ducpainter on November 15, 2017, 03:45:31 PM
Buy a torque wrench.

I have 2...both very good quality, one is a micrometer style for torquing reeeeally small bolts. In this case however I didn't have a 36mm 1/2 deep socket. And I'm not buying a 3/4" torque wrench.

I don't see them going anywhere given the force with which I applied them using a 2' breaker bar, also knowing what I know about how jam nuts work (they'll remove a cylinder head stud before they come loose) but yeah I'm shopping for a 36mm 1/2 drive deep socket right now. I don't disagree with you, DP and you're the one who got me through this.

So while I have a captive audience... Any recommendations on setting the bracket position and air gap? Liam from Fast Bike Gear recommends setting them as close as possible, basically with just enough clearance for the lump. But I don't see any obvious markings for the bracket, and there's a ton of room for advancing or retarding the ignition rotating that bracket. Since my sharpie marks washed off I set it in the middle, slightly biased to the left as that's how I remembered it being. My Haynes manual arrives tomorrow.

Oh and those lock nuts... Honestly I'm more worried about getting them off than anything else. They're so thin that getting a socket head on just the first one *and* applying enough torque to get it off won't be fun.

They make 3/4 to 1/2 adapters...problem solved...or...

use the factory nut and eliminate the rest of the hassle. ;D

Like Gert said...clean the threads well, use red loctite, a torque wrench, and be happy.

https://www.craftsman.com/products/craftsman-1-2-to-3-4-in-socket-adapter

You`ve just had a seized engine.
So why not do it as thorough as possible?

You-do-not-want-a-loose-flywheel. Could mean ruined splines/keyway etc.

Get the socket & adaptor and follow the Haynes.

36mm deep well 1/2” sockets are used to torque front wheel drive car axle shaft nuts.  Call your local auto parts store.  I paid about $12 for mine.

Air gap?  There is a spec for that.  Do not run it as close as possible!  Things grow when they heat up.  0.020” comes to mind but I haven't set ignition pickups in ten years.

.6-.8mm. air gap

Quote from: howie on November 16, 2017, 04:35:42 AM
.6-.8mm. air gap

Thx Howie.  I knew it was something more than 'as close as possible'.  [thumbsup]

I did order the correct deep socket from Amazon. Think it was $14. The nuts will be torqued properly.

Air gap is difficult to set to such a specific value, I have good digital calipers but a small ruler seems like it would be easier.

By "close as possible" I meant the shortest end of the spectrum, sorry for the confusion. Actually going back through his reams of tech pages, he recommends .2mm!!!

I mean...how in the heck do you describe that tight of a value beyond "as close to the trigger without hitting it".

This value is for the Ignitech branded pickups he sells FWIW

And you guys need to go easier on me, I'm a damn pencil pusher for a living not a mechanic...lol.

Maybe we could find out the exact tensile strength of a penny and convert that to an accurate way of torquing these FW nuts ;)

You would set the air gap with a non magnetic feeler gauge (brass)  https://www.homedepot.com/p/GearWrench-Non-Magnetic-Feeler-Gauge-2223D/205594602

I'm going to recheck the air gap spec.

Factory spec is .6-.8mm.  I don't know what to say about Ignitech's spec.  I would probably not use their pick ups.  Just my normal over cautious me.

Quote from: howie on November 16, 2017, 01:40:44 PM
Factory spec is .6-.8mm.  I don't know what to say about Ignitech's spec.  I would probably not use their pick ups.  Just my normal over cautious me.

Feeler gauges.

You're doing just fine Jake.  I had every-single question you've asked go through my head when I was learning about these engine/bikes.  [clap]

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jE0dZA3Fmqc/TxHyciYPeNI/AAAAAAAAAao/DeXldPeZZL8/s800/pickup%252520timing.JPG)

How's it going?

Quote from: koko64 on November 26, 2017, 07:18:05 AM
How's it going?

Waiting on parts to come back from powder coating and some custom brackets for a small cafe style windscreen. Also need to come up with a way to make the barrels and jugs look better now that the side covers are coated, like a dummy I didn't degrease and paint it all BEFORE having them done. I might just hit em hard with a nylon brush, degreaser and power wash. The paint itself is in good shape, just lots of baked on crud.

Light FW is installed and I've ordered new timing belts, FCR39's, 14t sprocket and am considering an exotic valve job while I'm having the belts changed.

The barrel paint is surprisingly good. I just cleaned mine and hit it with a spray polish product like Motul's Shine & Go or AmourAll spray. Comes up well.

Quote from: koko64 on November 28, 2017, 10:17:38 AM
The barrel paint is surprisingly good. I just cleaned mine and hit it with a spray polish product like Motul's Shine & Go or AmourAll spray. Comes up well.

Don't try to re-paint them.

Quote from: ducpainter on November 29, 2017, 03:27:15 AM
Don't try to re-paint them.

10-4. I'm barely motivated enough to roll it outta the garage, degrease, and scrub it. Looking forward to the results a stiff nylon brush, good degreaser yield tho.

 [popcorn]

OK, I've just purchased a Ducabike clear clutch cover (considering the enormous block of aluminum that thing appears to be cut from, and the onvious bling factor I consider the price I paid a bargain).

My question is this: I've only had the RHS cover off once for powder coat, but I seem to recall the wet pressure plate to be a one pice cast aluminum design.

Newer wet clutches have what appear to be a centerpiece with a trim ring.

I may opt to just powder coat it as well, but I'm wondering what I'd need to fit this hub:

https://motowheels.com/i-23899880-ducabike-billet-wet-clutch-hub-hypermotard-796-m620-695696796-s2r800-mts-620-scrambler.html

Can I swap over the necessary "trim ring" from an S2R800 and call it a day? in other words are the Ducati wet clutch components backwards compatible to any extent?

I already know I need more than just this hub. But I'm hoping I won't need to swap out the entire basket assembly etc, hoping it won't be a major PITA.

Does anyone make an aftermarket pressure plate only for a 2000 M750?

Are there aftermarket lightweight wet clutch baskets available to free up some more rotating weight?

Updates on the build: I've arranged for a nice multi angle valve job with enlarged valves and custom cut valve seats. Nibor's popcorn emoji is right on time....hey Nibor: you used Ferraci pistons in your 750, yes? along with a mild port/polish? any before/after commentary? any excess heat? running pump gas ok?

I absolutely trust Stu's input after doing soime homework on him, but at the same time there are people who absolutely love this engine, it has a somewhat cult like following. Seems tye most popular mod for the budget conscious is 800 heads with High Comp 750 pistons.

I know that's a lot of questions at one time, sorry. If buying the Ducabike hub and pairing it with a lighter basket or at least sourcing that outer ring becomes cost prohibitive I'll look into replacing everything with a wet slipper clutch, but I'm not a huge fan of slipper clutches. I like the grip of a traditional clutch and I enjoy doing hooliganish stuff like peeling out of a parking space next to a row of ugly Harley's and the "oh $hit" feeling of backing into corners.

Looking at parts diagrams now...the baskets appear to be entirely different. Too bad. But If a used wet clutch assembly comes up FS cheap enough I still might hop on it, IF it'll fit.

Ok, it looks like all I'd need to do is source a cheap used basket. The parts from the spible/track roller all the way to the slave cyl are identical.

The APTC semi-slipper clutch doesn't share any parts with the earlier conventional wet clutch.

You can swap out the entire clutch.

I've not seen nor heard of aftermarket pressure plates or baskets for the earlier conventional wet clutch.

I think you'll spend less money and get more power fitting a clean set of 695/800 heads.

Quote from: Speeddog on January 20, 2018, 07:19:51 AM
The APTC semi-slipper clutch doesn't share any parts with the earlier conventional wet clutch.

You can swap out the entire clutch.

I've not seen nor heard of aftermarket pressure plates or baskets for the earlier conventional wet clutch.

I think you'll spend less money and get more power fitting a clean set of 695/800 heads.

Speedog I have a line on a set of those. Should I use the stock pistons or, if cheap enough, would high compression 750 pistons in the 800 heads be a good add on? The concern around the webz is the extreme loss of compression when doing this swap. I'd want as much compression as possible. And a oil cooler from an MH900 with the extra fin.

Yes, a set of Hi-comp 750 pistons will be well worth the effort.

Oil cooler fitment is pretty straightforward, just have to run the flapper valve with one.

Quote from: Speeddog on January 20, 2018, 04:28:39 PM
Yes, a set of Hi-comp 750 pistons will be well worth the effort.

Oil cooler fitment is pretty straightforward, just have to run the flapper valve with one.

Oh, and - 695 heads are MUCH cheaper. Any big loss going with those instead? and I sssume the high comp 750 pistons will still fit?

Can I keep my current barrels?

695 and '07+ 800 heads are the same.

'06 and earlier 800 heads will have 8mm valve stems.

About 10 years ago Stuart and I did an '01 M750 with 695 heads and FbF 11:1 pistons, kept the same barrels.

Quote from: Speeddog on January 21, 2018, 11:35:48 AM
695 and '07+ 800 heads are the same.

'06 and earlier 800 heads will have 8mm valve stems.

About 10 years ago Stuart and I did an '01 M750 with 695 heads and FbF 11:1 pistons, kept the same barrels.

Just to confirm those are 88mm pistons..

How'd that project turn out, Stu and SD?

Also as opposed to starting a new thread since all the smart ppl here have posted in this one..

I'm having some difficulty fitting 02 M750ie headers in my hooped frame. I chose these headers specifically bc they have built in collets and don't use the dreaded half rings I hate.

Is there a difference between the 2? I know the swingarms are slightly different but I didn't think it'd be dramatic enough to effect the headers. I'll rastle with em some more today.

Different part numbers.  I can't answer if they fit. but the "hoop" monsters are based on the 851 superbike frame, the '02 frame is based on the ST.  Do you have 750 carbie headers?

Maybe a slight difference in the bend for different swingarms/linkage?

Quote from: howie on January 23, 2018, 01:58:17 PM
Different part numbers.  I can't answer if they fit. but the "hoop" monsters are based on the 851 superbike frame, the '02 frame is based on the ST.  Do you have 750 carbie headers?

I do not have headers meant for a carbie bike, no. Considered ordering a used pair for comparisons sake but nothing rationally priced on eBay right now,

It's the exhaust ports where I'm concerned there might be a difference. In 02 M750 (and 620, the rare M800 etc) Ducati finally did away with those half rings in favor of a smarter setup....built in/non removable collars (you're not removing these without a cut/reweld). Just the header plus an exhaust crush gasket cinched down by a coller and 2 studs....the no brainer way.

Another way of confirming if they fit - are M750ie heads the same as carbie 750 heads? are the exhaust ports identical? if yes, I simply need to keep monkeying with these headers till they work. I have S&P/DP rearsets which isn't helping matters but such is life.

They fit. You need Ducati part number 80A062649 X2 "holder" plus 2 of the grommets, or use hardware store grommets. They fix to the engine case. Then it's a matter of monkeying around if you're using aftermarkets pipes (MIVV X-Cones for me...damn they look good). I highly recommend this as an upgrade...I really did hate those obnoxious half rings...

 [thumbsup]

Anyone have a pair of these bouncing around a dusty box?

https://www.pieces-detachees-occasion-ducati.com/2801-thickbox_default/silents-blocs-fixation-silencieux-echappement-ducati-748-916-996-998-80a062649-800062649-57610671a.jpg (https://www.pieces-detachees-occasion-ducati.com/2801-thickbox_default/silents-blocs-fixation-silencieux-echappement-ducati-748-916-996-998-80a062649-800062649-57610671a.jpg)

https://www.pieces-detachees-occasion-ducati.com/2801-thickbox_default/silents-blocs-fixation-silencieux-echappement-ducati-748-916-996-998-80a062649-800062649-57610671a.jpg

Found em. The MIVV X-CONES I purchased look like they'll fit nicely with my S&P rearsets, I'm just going to have to highlight out the mounting holes in the tabs a bit.

I'm leaning towards the 695 head swap dye to price, availability, and the fact I can keep my pricy billet cam end caps.

Dumb question of the day - is  the fact that the 695 has a shorter stroke meaningless to me? Being that my stroke is going to be the 61.5 of the 750 regardless of the heads?