Ducati Monster Forum

I bought a '98 900ss fe today

 :D  [Dolph] [Dolph] [Dolph] :D

 [evil]

Pics...

or it's a rumor. [evil]

I'll get there [laugh] 12 hr day to go get this thing and all the stuff that came with it.

Great score.  [thumbsup]

Deal King couldn't pass it up.

Hello.  Again.

Last year of the slab side 900’s.  3~ charging & some rare bits too boot.  [thumbsup]

Nice work ;D

Cool.

I want my '94 M900 back. I have dreams of finding a nice S4RS too, but have a hard time justifying yet another bike. But nobody lives forever.....

This is number four for me. I miss my 00 M900 and this is a bucket list bike for me so I had to get it. There's nothing like the air cooled 900 twin for sound and feel.

Yeah, and looks.

I should have kept mine and addressed its ever-occurring issues, as well as punching it out to 944 and putting flatslides on it. Sigh.

IIRC: the ‘98 FE had a different exhaust header which offered greater ground clearance.

I did not know this. I thought they were all the same.

In which direction do you have to travel 12 hours?

He told me he was heading East.

Maryland, 5 hours one way, 2 hours bs-ing ;D

Sweet! Welcome back  [beer]

I thought maybe you were headed to VT.

I know of an FE up there.

If I was in VT I would have planned a stop in NH ;D

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I also got a 900ie engine and spare ss frame with a title!

And a Spark high mount exhaust, NIB

Looks like a nice clean bike. Congrats.

Yeah not messed with [thumbsup].

What plans do you have for it?

This was one of tizzy's bikes and the guy he bought from tipped it over and cracked the nose and scratched both fairings and one mirror. It's been sitting three years.

I will probably check valves, definitely will replace cam belts.

Replace the wiring to from the starter/starter solenoid with nice stranded copper, add spark exhaust, buy a battery for it, and gas er up!

Might want to plan on tires, and cleaning the float bowls.

I had thought about the bowls. Tires look ok. I've ridden on a lot worse ;D

I do have a rear I could throw on so just need a front.

Also, full floating rotors are super badass

The ie engine has hotter cams.

The OE wheels are running Pilot Road 1’s so likely the previous owner didn’t push hard.  Lightweight wheels *really* transform these bikes.

I passed on a hopped up ‘97 SS with magnesium wheels years ago.  That bike was so nimble!  Timing for the purchase wasn’t right on my end though.

I have already had thoughts of converting it to injection. It would be nothing to either swap over cams and ignition stuff from the ie engine that came with it or just swap engines.

I *think* I have a coupe ecu's from an ie ss so would just need a harness.

It could work.

Or would it be sacrilege to turn an ssfe into ssfeie?

it's only sacrilege if I don't get first dibs on the motor you have left over. ;D

Well, that spare frame needs something in it too. But, now I'm well up against the question of how many make the beast with two backsing bikes do I really need [laugh]

Need= feel like maintaining and insuring.

I haven't ridden/rode any of my three in a year, but I 'need' more...kinda like shotguns.

I always find a need. ;D

I'm looking to replace the bottom end on the SS I bought. It's the very early short crank version and most side cover parts are unobtanium. Since it's a track bike a later motor would be handy.

I feel your pain.

In light of what Stu said, I'm curious as to the cam codes on the heads of your FE. I've read that some US versions possibly got carbed versions of the ie motor and not just the later cases and alternator. If that's true then some US models are extra rare.

I see a V2 on the heads. Does that help?

Yep, but are there three letters on the rockers? How do they compare to the cam codes on the ie motor?

I'll report back once I've cracked it open

Carb : OHT/VHT
IE : O8J/V8J
Courtesy of Bikeboy .


The story is some US FE's got ie cams. The later heads should be a little bit better too. Under the LHS cam cover you'll see the code on the side of the big lobe.

If you want to inject the SS/FE, you will need to cut and weld the frame to do a full Ducati I.E. setup.  The horizontal throttle body interferes with the straight horizontal tube which mounts the rear of the air box.

Injected bikes have a curved tube to allow room.

To be clear, the cam cover is the cam bearing cover not the valve cover. Sorry I was half asleep last night looking at my phone. I also meant rocker box for the head code, but the cam code is under the cam bearing cover on the side face of the lobe.

The story doing the rounds was of a shortage of late 3 phase case carb motors so some ie motors got carbed . I don't know if it was true and have heard different opinions about it. We know Ducati threw whatever was available into whatever, but there are plenty of myths too.

Keep it carbed and complete imo. Hi comp pistons and flat slides are another matter. ;D Or you can work oem carbs by picking up a stock pair cheap and working/tuning them. If the motor stays stock don't go over 39mm imo.
With tuned or modified stock carbs I like to run a single cable, quick turn throttle tube. You can buy the tube to use one oem cable in the oem throttle casing. Say goodbye to the pesky return cable for a really crisp opening and closing. Funny how some safety features make things worse. I found it returns better and more safely than the twin cable set up as the vacuum slams the butterflies shut unlike a flat slide when the vacuum tries to pin the slide in place!

That doesn't sound that bad. I'll start with just getting it going on carbs for now.

I'm becoming a carb convert. On thing I love about my 950smr is that the carbs sort of soften the throttle a little. Injected bikes always seemed a little snatchy especially at low throttle positions.

Even with vacuum secondaries I don't feel much lag when I roll on hard. I'm hoping I can get this ss feeling similar.

FCR's might be a thing too though so...

Interesting. I've been advised to go with 41's always.

Heck, there's a 41 on my 450 (520 big bore) supermoto

Hi comp or 944, ported, big valves, etc? Sure, go 41's. 41's let a worked motor reach its full potential and give more at WOT over the curve. I have run 41's on two worked 900's and it was a good move. One of my comp, ported 900's gave 86hp and 68 ft/lbs with stock valves and cams with 41's. If mods are a possibility then get 41's.
39's give better part throttle response at the expense of 2-3ish peak hp and do work better with a stock bike imo. I also reckon they start easier in the cold than 41's if you run 58-60 pilots in cold climates. FWIW, JD Hord put this to me years ago and with hindsight, I reckon he's right.

Noted

At this stage of the game, none of this has anything to do with need. It’s all about want!  [evil]

Well, you're not wrong.

I was just thinking I should cut the flywheel and all the gears on the right side.

'cuz you can...

39's on a stock motor...all the way.

Really loving this thread. One of the most beautiful bikes ever made. I miss my 92 SL900 (#173). It now has a blueprinted 90hp 944 hi comp motor with FCR39's, Ti valves, 900ie cams, light flywheel, etc.

It's great that you can easily do it in house. If hi compression pistons are in the bikes future, then only take a little off the flywheel, say 500g, but if you don't plan on increasing compression you can go more closer to removing 750-1000g. If you take enough off the primary and timing gears and clutch you might be happy close to stock flywheel. I did a lot of testing with flywheels and there is a limit to how light you can go with hi comp and no slipper clutch. There's also personal preference and ones middle ear tolerance for resonance, but you're young and strong. When I was younger I removed flywheel mass and as I got older I put it back ;D

Why? 

That question applies to your comment about-

Adding mass
Resonance
High comp with light fw no good
Etc

Let's get to work

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It's home?

Since Thursday :D

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Some front end damage from a tip over. Or a very mild hit. Other than some scrapes on the fairings and one mirror it's pretty decent.

Aaaaaannnd there's 3 year old fuel in the tank. And some rust.

I'm glad I didn't pay a ton for this. She needs love.

You did say it sat...

I think I was also told it was fogged and drained before it was parked on stands. Fuel tap under the tank wasn't shut off. Carbs probably need more than the float bowls cleaned.

Fcr decision probably needs to happen now. I had to force the throttle grip open and closed it's so gunky. Seems to be loosening up as I work it. I don't think it's the grip or the cables, I think it's the carb itself that's sticking.

How should I go about cleaning out the tank?

Yes, true. Just laying some possible paths for your consideration. My enthusiasm about this bike is tied to nostalgia about my old Superlight. The answers are in the engine characteristics you want for how you intend to ride it, engine braking, smoothness, etc.

There's an FE over here and they're asking 13-14k . I'll be eagerly watching this thread from a stage four lockdown. Cheers.

Is it rusty?

I think there's some, yes. I don't think I can get a good picture but I can try.

I have the tank tipped up and the fuel I can see looks fairly orange.

Below the line left from the fuel the sides of the tank look like there is some rust spots. Above the line the sides of the tank seem coated in a yellowish material.

The hoses, hose clamps, and fuel related do dad's that are dry have a crystal like coating on them.

Ethanol is probably a factor.

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Not sure if you need the 30R10 hose as the fuel pressure is basically zero, but it's got to some be submersion rated stuff.

I had not considered replacing the hose. Should I?

Here's a better view after I got the cap ring off. I think I'm doing to pull everything out to facilitate cleaning the inside of the tank.

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I would replace the hoses.

I've found that extended exposure to rotting ethanol-laced gas turns even the immersion rated rubber into .... window caulking compound/pasta/snot.

Tank is a bit skanky, but looks like a good cleaning will square it away.

YouTube is full of different ways to clean rusty tanks. What's your favorite? At least with the top cap off I can get my hand in there I think.

Evaporust is the least toxic. Buy the kit that makes 5 gallons, fill the tank to overflowing, and let it work.

More toxic is phosphoric acid. Better if you're going to coat.

Call me if you have questions.

Goodbye old gas
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Decent progress yesterday. Air box and carbs are out and everything is out of the tank. Getting ready to order a new pump/filter/hoses, cam belts and FCR's along with some voodoo called evaporust.

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Should there be a mud guard/hugger in there?  It has the mounts for one
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Someone will correct me if I’m full of it, but I think that rubber bush mounts the side panels for the tail.

Yes, there should be a hugger.
The ie ones are two piece, not sure of carbie ones.
I had a really nice one that got 90% sawed in half by a too-wide tire or being run with loose bolts.

That wellnut above the muffler bracket is for the sidecover, IIRC the sidecovers plug in at the back and hook over a rubbercoated widget on the front.

This.

Flush it out first with some E85 to remove any goop. Then fill it up with Eveporust as Nate says and let it sit for a few days. That's pretty minor rust, IMO, and it will clean up nicely. I used that stuff on my old Sears and it's amazing.

I ordered a 5 gallon bucket of it yesterday along with a gallon of POR-15 degreaser (will make 5 gallons)

Yeahhhh, ML's ride is a Mono, not a BiP, so likely not that way.

Expensive week.

Purchased so far -

Belts
FCR's
Gas cap o-ring
fuel pump
fuel filter
5 gallons of Evapo-Rust
1 gallong of POR-15 Cleaner/Degreaser (Formally known as Marine Clean)

Still to buy-
fork seals-bushings-springs
Spring compressor and clip (shim?  whatever tf that thing is called that holds the spring down)
submersible fuel hose

What else?  Surely I'm forgetting something.

Battery

Spark plugs

Fork Oil

Chain lube

Tires

No, but at least pull the plugs and give them an inspection.  Plus, @ $2/plug... why not?

True

Great thread and awesome bike!

Reminds me of my 1st Ducati purchase, a 1988 Paso Limited. I learned a valuable lesson through that purchase, which is, there is no such thing as a cheap Ducati!  [beer]

You’ve motivated me to change the fuel filter in my S4!

Glad to help!

Also sorry about the Paso. But not really. Those bikes hurt me to look at ;)

As much as an Indiana?

That is going to be one sweet bike when done.

I've seen pics of the indiana but it's been so long I can't picture it and to be safe I'm not looking it up ;D

Stock shock, correct?

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Yes, and I'm pretty sure that's the 'short' shock.

Short?

Was thinking of a respring for my weight since I'm doing the forks. Do I need to do internal stuff or can I just swap the spring?

So it seems that I have the showa shock which has shit valving and the cost to get it good would probably be high.

So I'm looking for a sachs unit, from an ss ie if possible, or any other crossover that applies.

I posted some stuff, and a pic, I swear....

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The shock on the right is the later version, a wee bit longer IIRC, 5mm (?)

Yep, the one on the right is what I'm looking for. Is that a picture off the net or those are yours... to sell?

No, those are mine, and yes that shock is available.

Pm me price and mileage?

Where did you find a low pressure in tank fuel pump?

Lots of googling and part number crossing lead me to this pump from airtex (e2487)

https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/airtex,E2487,fuel+pump,6256

5-7psi

I'm kinda rolling the dice on this working but it wasn't a lot of money so I'm not out a lot if it isn't right.

Is the fuel pump precautionary, or is there a problem with the original?

Every bit of the fuel system has sediment strewn through it. The pump was cheap, I got another filter and am replacing all the hoses (in tank and out)

I don't want problems and now is the time to make sure I'm set.

I'd flush some fresh fuel through the OEM pump and run it.

Those things are bullet proof. Keep the Airtex for the very unlikely chance you'll need it.

That's just me. ;D

Hmm.. Noted

Anyone know what fuel pressure the OEM pump puts out?

Never heard a number.

Google is no good on that statistic.

I don’t know the original pump fuel pressure, but carburetors seem to like 5-7psi from my car building days.

Probably because no one ever measured it.

The common consensus is the Monster vacuum pumps were in the 3 psi range. The fact that the SS uses a return should preclude the possibility of the 5-7 psi range of the Airtex pump being a problem.

Don't worry...be happy. ;D

The other carb bikes don't use a return?

The ones with vacuum pumps do not.

The vacuum pump produces fuel in spurts coinciding with vacuum pulses in the manifolds. It's kind of a self regulating system because it isn't constant flow, or pressure. The SS was the 'race bike' of the day and needed more consistent fuel flow so Ducati mounted an in tank pump and used a return to avoid overwhelming the floats during low use situations.

IMO, in an SS configuration all the pump is doing is making sure there's fuel sitting in the line waiting to trickle past the float valve.

Side note: you can (if wishing to run injection), swap in a high pressure pump to the older tanks.

The fuel in my lines won't be waiting long I can tell you that [evil]

I'm leaving it carb.

Send wrong to hack up a semi rare, numbered bike

Nate nailed it. 

Fuel pump day. The Airtex pump is a very close match to the Ducati pump. Both pumps .375 outlet, same can diameter, but the new pump is about .25 longer.

The filter was in rough shape. Only 13,000 miles on it.

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Also- I have the tank full of Evaporust. A full 5 gallon bucket filled the 4.6 gallon tank and there was still a little room for more.

I used a 1-1/16 rubber stopper to plug off the level sender hole and that worked great.

I would use the new pump.  Airtex has a good rep and they are an OEM supplier.

That is the plan!

What are the odds I can pull the forks with the bike on a front stand?  Pin in the triple obviously.

Good.  Undo the fork caps first.  The triples make a good vice. 

[thumbsup]

Some progress today and also a good level of frustration.  today was the day for stripping fasteners I guess.

Evaporust is absolutely amazing. I don't know what else to say. I filled the tank and let it soak for 20 hours.

As I was draining it I didn't think it had worked and was disappointed. The rust looked the same. Reaching in and giving the still submerged rust a quick scrub had it loosen up and suspend in the fluid.  I continued agitating everything with my hand as it drained.

I rinsed it all out with the garden hose a couple of times and dried what I could get at with a hand towel. I then used Mrs Monsterlover's hair dryer to put some hot air into the tank and continue the drying process.

The hair dryer had all the metal of the tank fairly warm to the touch. So I think it did a pretty good job. No moisture that I could find. Here is the result.


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One of the bolts on the crank cover decided to strip out for me. No amount of destruction could get it to budge. Since the bolt on the right came right out, I got the bright idea of just twisting the entire cover counterclockwise. That worked quite well.

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Unrelated to stripping fasteners, is this monster. I use this big boy to break the fork caps loose. It does not care if something is tight. I've never had it not loosen a fastener.  Nothing says no to this thing so far.

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as I'm working on pulling the forks, of course I have to pull the front wheel and the brakes. I suspect these pads have been oiled.

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I had a rough time working on the forks. One of the bolts holding the carbon front fender decided to strip and it's recessed so I have all like zero access to it. I ended up drilling the head off of it. The threads remain still in the fork. They are in there very well. I think I'll have that to the shop to drill it out from the back side on the Bridgeport.

Once that was off I started working on the front wheel. I am not able to get the front axle loose with tools that I have here. I'm going to try buying a 14 mm by half drive hex socket. If that does not work I don't know what I'm going to do.

I have the pinch bolts still tight on the right side. if I loosen them very much at all then the whole sleeve spins as well and the axle does not unthread.

This is not my favorite axle design.

I got out the pipe and gave the axle some brutality. It's out. Forks are off.

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I dumped out a sizeable amount of purple oil. I thought these were dry but they definite aren't.

Some scoring in the chrome. One fork it seems to be all visual. The other I *think* I can feel the scoring with my nail but I'm not sure.

I'm not sure of the camera makes this look way worse than it is or if it's showing me things my eyes can't see.

Is this worth rebuilding?

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Was it leaking?

Both were. I don't know if it was because of the scoring on the legs or both seals had something caught up in there.

If you want

https://racetech.com/download/Fork_Tubes_Catalogue.pdf

Been there done that got the T-shirt not happy.

Pull the forks all the way down to bits with those sliders still on the lowers.

Shoeshine polish those with a strap of something convenient and 4 digit sandpaper.
I think they'll be OK.

The R/T 'replacements' died from corrosion in very short order, both the originals and the warranty replacements.
I threw in the towel after the second set.
I got the originals redone, work left a little to be desired and UX was not great.
I do not dare look up how long those have lasted lest it go sideways again.
I have heard nothing so I'm going on no news is good news.

Lots of progress today even though it doesn't look like much. I made fork service tools and drilled out the stuck fender bolt I had to take the head off.

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It came out ok. I lost some thread but chased it with a tap and it looks decent. It will be enough for a fender bolt.

Next was use a $200k lathe and a $35k lathe to make a spring compressor instead of spending actual money.

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2" drill putting in the work.

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On to the other lathe to make the spring compressor handles. It already had jaws set for 5/8 material so it got used.

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It worked.

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Now to make one of those springy-holdy-downy-thingies. Since I don't know what they're actually called.

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This is a T slot cleaner for a mill table. I have a bunch and it looks like it will work for my needs. Just have to cut off the part I don't need.

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Left the left side connected for support. I'll buzz that out after I have it slotted. I couldn't measure the rod in the fork other than a guess of 10mm by eye. I think it might have been 9mm?

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Finished.

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And functional!

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I'll disassemble either tonight or tomorrow. The plan is to pull out the lowers and chuck them in the lathe for polishing.

Oh hell yeaah!

A sporting individual would have made those from wood.

 ;D

Seriously, keep up the good work.

Heat up the outers before you try to get the inners and bushings out.
I've had the bushings impersonate an expanding collet and it's distressing.

Knew you would  [clap]

I hope you pulled a $1 million job to actually save $. ;D

I didn't save anything, those tools are like $25 on eBay. But I didn't want to wait a week to get them.

I'm not sure is there's a name for what's wrong with me or not ;D

Full blown case of Ducati-itis is raging right now.

It's just more fun making your own shit.

And if I paid $100k for a knife I'd certainly cut a carrot with it.  ;D

Sometimes it's way more fun *not* punching in a card #.

Truth. I'm not even done using the card number though. Still need a rear shock and fork parts.

If the sliders come good then yeah fork parts, I'll take a look at stock and see what I've got.

its late; canucks just got eliminated by Vegas after a well fought comeback; so Ill use an old fashioned method to quote; this gave me the giggles; thanks ;)=

"...

Now to make one of those springy-holdy-downy-thingies. Since I don't know what they're actually called.

…."

… that's the best part about using the expansive lathe.  ;D [thumbsup]

  [popcorn]

 [Dolph]

;D fixed that for you

Well, haven't done much lately other than organize my garage. Much nicer to work in now. Not done but good enough to do more work.

I pulled the belts, drained the oil and started the valve check.

I have some phobias of this since the last 900 I did exploded because it dropped a valve. Spectacular and catastrophic. I can't help but think I didn't have the keeper wires seated correctly.

It was also an eBay engine of unknown history so... Maybe it wasn't me.

The horizontal cylinder intake looked good. The exhaust closer is about .000 but the opener is tight at .002.

I'm going to check the vertical cylinder before I do anything else. Maybe I can swap parts around and not have to sand or machine anything.

I don't have anything here to measure it anyhow (other than install it and check with feeler gauges)

One foot in front of the other...

That phobia is understandable, pretty crap luck.

4/8 valve shims are knacked. I tried swapping things around and even tried some from a different engine to no avail.

I wanted a kit but didn't like the price. I happened to find a place that rents Ducati tools and the rent shim kits.

$50+$250 refundable deposit. They send you the shim kit and all the tools you need. Use what shims you need and return it. The hit you for $9/shim and cover shipping both ways (built into the price obviously). I figure I'll be out somewhere around $100 to have things set up right.

http://www.ducatitoolrental.com/ducati-shim-kits.html

Unless that shim kit comes with multiple pieces of each size, you may run out.

Best to measure the shims that you have, combine with your measured clearances and figure out what sizes you want.

Keep in mind that the half rings do wear, so replacing those can reduce your closer clearance.

The shims also wear a bit in the half-ring seating area, and none of the measuring tools I've seen account for this.
This can lead to lots of aggro.
Much more of a problem with the 7mm bits than the 8, but it does occur.
The faces of the shims can wear a bit too, but it's not so big.

I already ordered it. As long as I can get close I can surface grind the shims to where I need them. And as long as I have the kit I'm going to try to hit as close to .000 on the closers as I can since *everything* I read about that says the engines run better.

You have a mag chuck that can hold onto a shim?
Could glue 'em down...

I'm not sure how much difference in running quality there is between .002" and ~0.000" on closers, but they definitely run shitty at .010".

Just enough clearance so they don't drag.
The early stuff like your SS doesn't seem to have any weird spots, the DS1k has tight spots near the clearance ramps.

I measure clearance with the clips out.

Remember to always have the piston at TDC before you remove any half-rings.

Don't turn the crank until you've verified that all valves are closed.

And don't hit the start button until you've turned the engine over twice carefully by hand with the belts on.

--edit-----

If you supply air at 5-10psi to the chamber at TDC, it'll hold the valves closed on the seats and it won't turn the engine over.
Makes messing with the shims so much easier.
Not so big a deal on 2 valvers but every little bit helps on the 4V stuff.

Mag chuck on the surface grinder.

Why tdc before pulling half rings?  I'd clamp the valve stem to keep it from dropping or is that not enough?

I have the clips out and the belts off.  Started with all the tdc marks lined up on the stator and all the belt pulleys.

Currently things measure-

Front cylinder
-intake, open .004
-intake, close .002
-exhaust, open .002
-exhaust, close .000

Rear cylinder-
-intake, open .007
-intake, close .003
-exhaust, open .005
-exhaust, close .003

Back in the day when I was near a mag chuck daily, it wasn't able to hold small stuff due to the pitch on the magnets.
It is not likely that you have that particular mag chuck, so YMMV.

I don't clamp the valve stems.
It's another piece of equipment in the way.
It provides an opportunity to fuxxor the stem seal or the stem itself.
I've got a leakdown gauge to supply the air to hold the valve closed from the other side.
This is also a side effect of 4V, I've fought for every cubic mm of working room I can get so I exploit it every time I can.

[laugh] I get it.

I normally cover the clamp with some rubber hose to protect the stem.

The leak down setup is fancy. I guess I could pack a bunch of cord in there instead.

The shims are small, yes. But that's why you block things on the chuck. Keeps them from turning into missiles ;)

Any word on that shock?  I have the whole rear of the bike held up with a piece of angle iron between the frame and tire.

It's pretty redneck. It was the first thing I thought of though. Maybe I should call it Kevneck.

I dropped a vertical intake valve on a customers ‘01 M900S years ago after completing the phone call with him confirming he could come pick the bike up.

I got the valve back out of the head without taking the head off.  Let’s just say it was “fun”...

Egads!!

I bet your stomach flipped when that happened. How did you get it back?

Vertical intake for the record.

I removed the intake and the plug.  I ground the pocket clip off of an extender magnet/mirror tool and fished it down the valve guide while moving the valve stem into position through the spark plug hole and rotating the piston (as room allowed) back towards TDC.  Eventually, I managed to hit the top of the 8mm valve firmly with the magnet and pulled it back through the guide.

 [roll]  (or you can summarize all the above with...) Luck.

That'll teach you to tell someone it's done before it's really done ;)

Nah...  Thick skull sometimes.  It also figures that this guy was incredibly particular as customers go.

Anyways, I always chuckle when I use that magnet/mirror tool to this day.  [thumbsup]

I found that the clamp holding the valve was always in the way, or coming loose when I was trying to do something.
Leakdown gauge was in the toolbox since long ago, so it wasn't a big leap.
For this application it's merely a handy pressure regulator.
Don't try and tell me you can't make up a sparkplug/air hose adapter.  ;D

I did not loiter in the Plane of Maiming nor downrange of the surface grinder.
The guy who ran it also owned the whole enchilada and had been grinding for at least two minutes so I let him run it like he wanted.  [cheeky]

Sorry, yeah I'll get that shock sorted.

I could totally make a spark plug hose adapter.

Way to set the hook.

 ;D

I got the leakdown gauge back when I was running Bonneville and El Mirage.
Said running also included wrenching into the wee hours.
The QR fitting that connects to the spark plug hole was deliberately chosen different from the shop air lines, and only mated to the leakdown, which had a regulator.
This was chosen after inadvertently hooking the motor directly to 150psi shop air.
It's the kind of thing that happens right after you spend 20 minutes looking for that wrench you just had in your hand.

I hadn't thought about pressure. What's a decent number to put into these engines?

I set the regulator to 10 psi or so.

It'll hold the valves on the seat, and you can push with your finger to pop em off the seat.

If you can pop them of the seat with your finger that seems like not enough air? 

I don't want to have to pretend I'm Stu and fish for valves

Piston is always at TDC on the cylinder I'm working on, to provide the mechanical stop.
10psi is enough to keep the valves on the seats for messing with closer shims and half rings.
But it's not enough to turn the crank.

TDC as a back stop for sure. I use forceps,  makes me feel doctorly. ;D

Fixed it to reflect what I do in my spare time these days.

More work on the fuel tank tonight. Finally got fuel hose rated for submersion in fuel and got the pump, filter and sender back in.

Also found some rust under the tank that I suspect was battery acid. Roughed that up and shot some Rustough on it to seal it up.

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I know it's not Ducpainter quality but nobody will ever see it and I just needed it sealed up.

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The tank is definitely looking much gooder inside now.  [thumbsup]

Ok. Valves.

Here's where I'm at after swapping in some new shims and sanding endlessly on one of them.

Front cyl-
Intake open .004
Intake close .002
Exhaust open .0045
Exhaust close .0015

Rear cyl-
Intake open .005
Intake close .003
Exhaust open .005
Exhaust close .003

I wouldn't mind another .001 on some of those but I'm wondering if it even matters with how things sit.

I can rotate all the closers with my fingers but there's drag on them all. Unlike the openers that freewheel. Is that right?

I did this with the belts off and the clips off the opener rockers.  I checked closer clearance by pressing on the closet rocker, measuring gap at the opener and subtracting the opener clearance.

Would you adjust further?

I'd adjust further but that hinges strongly on my having a big box'O'shims.

Closers can get wedged to the valve and half rings so that it spins the valve too, and that's draggy.

Cams should rotate freely no drag until it's opening a valve.

Cams spin with no drag.

What would you adjust?  I have an ems kit here.

I'd try to get closers closer to 0.

Would .000 be an issue as things heat up?  Shouldn't there be a little something for expansion?

No.

As things heat up, closer specs open up and opener specs close up due to the valve stem grows due to the heat expansion.

Yeah that makes sense

Dammit I need to check for posts before typing. What Stu said.

I'm not sure of what the true ROI is on chasing the last 0.001" or 0.002" out of the closer clearance.
It'd be an interesting test, set all closers to 0.003" and ride it, then get 'em as close to 0 then ride again.
Better yet do that on a dyno!
I'd try to trick Brad or Ducvet into doing that but it I like them and I think they'd see right through the ruse.

The mechanism is happier with 0, as it's not banging around.

Closers up around 0.010" they definitely run shitty and it accelerates the wear on the half rings and shims, likely valves too but that's really hard to see.

IMO, the shitty running with loose closers is mostly due to that effectively retarding intake closing.
Brad has thoroughly documented the benefits of proper closing timing, so I think there's something to my theory.

.000 it is then!

I usually wrote that spec on my customers receipts as:  0.000+”. Just to show that it wasn’t exactly 0, just was between 0.000” & 0.001”.

Spec printed under my ss tank says .0008 on closers and .004 on openers so that would match what you setup

Fiddled with valves tonight.

Here's where things sit currently. Let me know how this looks.

Front cylinder-
Intake open .005
Intake close .000
Exhaust open .005
Exhaust close .000+ / .0005

Rear cylinder-
Intake open .004
Intake close .001
Exhaust open .004+
Exhaust close .000 + /.0005

I think these are a lot better but one thing is troubling me. I have measurable clearance on both closers on the rear cylinder but I still have drag on the cam when I spin it without the opening rocker arms engaging anything.

Even though everything is well within spec, I feel like I need to open them up more to get the drag off the cam. Am I right or do I leave it alone and pack it all back up?

Swapped some clutch stuff over from that spare engine. The cover had some dings and scratches on it but it matched the bike so I left it as is.

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Drag on cam = bad.

So I figured. How can I have clearance I can measure and cam drag at the same time?

Is that really a thing?

Speeddog mentioned cams not being machined perfectly earlier in the thread.  That would get my vote.

I missed that. That scenario seems... unlikely. For that to be true the base circle would have to be either out of round or off center. Or both.

I'm not a 2v scientist like you guys are though. It's just perplexing. The way it feels I can't help but wonder if I'm going to end up back closer to the .003 I started with.

Not the base circles, those are easy (I would imagine).  The transition onto and off of cam lobes would be tricky ai would think.

Anyways...  Other option is to just leave it as it is.

Maybe what you're describing as drag is something else.

Like you say...how is it possible to have measurable clearance and drag at the same time?

Did you feel the same thing at .003 on the closers?

I don't think so, no. So that would point to things being too tight.

However, I have similar measurements on the front cylinder closers and that cam flys around with zero drag. So that might point to something else.

:P

Every time I think, I swear I'll never do it again. ;D

If you're uncomfortable with the drag, reset the closers and see if the drag goes away. I wouldn't jump right to .003. I'd go .001 at a time, 1 valve at a time to see if you can isolate the issue.

Try to isolate which valve it is and debug that.

The shims and half rings are not perfect, rocker faces and such not maybe perfectly perpendicular and lotta stackup.
Brand new 7mm half rings have squashed ends from the cutting and need to be deburred.
Shims and valve stems wear.
Spin the closer shim relative to the valve and see if you can find tight spots

If you're using 'measuring opener clearance then pushing the closer down and re-measuring'....
the measuring increments of 0.001" and measurement error starts to fuxxor the numbers when you get close to zero.
You can try '0.004" fits thru with this feel of slip on the feeler, so I'll push down on the closer rocker and try to get a 0.005" to slide the same'

Sometimes it's that old move 50% less each step you take and you never get there.

It's both


Noted!

This is exactly how I did it. I looked for the same feel with larger feeler gages while keeping pressure on the closing rocker.

It is possible to push down on the closer rocker hard enough to 'spring' it and make more clearance.
You only need to push hard enough to overcome the closer spring.

It's possible to get carbon sitting on the seat/valve face that fuxxors with the measurements.
Sometimes the seating of the shims/halfrings is a little sticky.
Rotate the cam with the opener rocker off so you can push the valve open a good bit and let it snap closed a couple times and see if there's a bit of swarf spoiling the party

Worn valves and seats they don't sit the same every time

When pushing on the closer rocker try to avoid the tool slipping off and shanking the valve stem or seal

I'm on the right track. I pulled both exhaust closers from the rear cylinder and worked on them.

The intake closer had drag so I ground .0005-.0008 of off it and reinstalled. No drag and .0005+ on clearance.

Had to break out the Norton stone kit. .004 increments just aren't enough.

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Dude WTF you're missing like 5 stones.
















 [laugh]
I've got a tiny collection of stones sitting in a drawer and it's surely a sin of some sort.

That setup is like gold wrapped in bacon I never knew such a thing existed.

[laugh]

Those five are lost to the ages. Seemed like a better method than sand paper.

A few drops of motor oil then make circles. Rotate the shim a little then more circles.

Check progress with mics or calipers. I had some that ended up being maybe a few tenths out of flat but was able to mostly fix that with a sharpie and strategic stoning on half the shim.

I don't know if it even matters. The oem ones aren't flat either. They're out more than a few tenths.

A good effort to get that bee's dick of clearance to get them spot on. [thumbsup]

This^, it's about feel. The same goes for feeling for drag on the cam base circle. The cam roller bearings in the old motors spin different to the cam plain bearings in the new motors imo, so drag feels different.

I'm trying to remember if i ever took too much off a whole shim face by hand. nope.
The 7mm stuff is right on the edge of awkward for fingers in general.
Not sure what the V4 have but there are lots of them.

They seem to work OK if they're out a few tenths.
Everything floats around on oil and if we saw slo-mo at 9krpm it'd be like diving boards and fish flapping around I bet.

Feel, yeah, first time I turned the crank on a single phase motor was a big "Uh oh" about nothing.

Mike's EMS shims were very nice, hopefully the quality can be retained.

I get better results with figure 8's when trying to retain flatness. Those stones are a little small to do that, I guess.

It can be done but it slowed things down too much. I'm good with circles, measuring the shim and fixing the high spots.

Ok, here's where the valve adjustment sits. I just finished working on the last two closers. I have pretty tight closer clearances and no cam drag at all on either cylinder.

Front cylinder-
Intake open .005
Intake close .000+
Exhaust open .005
Exhaust close .0005 or .000+

Rear cylinder-
Intake open .004
Intake close .000+ or .0005
Exhaust open .005
Exhaust close .001

Does that look like a winner or should I keep going?

No need to paint it, just ship it

Eric would get that rear cyl exhaust closer to .000 ;D

You could replace the half rings and get there, but after a few revolutions you'd be in the same place.

I had it closer to zero on both (rear cyl-) and I had drag on the cam. Went .0005 at a time until it went away.

Here we are.

Chasing tenths out of this system requires a pile of shims and bucket of patience.

Problem is we can't measure the position of the actual working surface where the half-ring sits in a closer shim.
We can measure nearby but we're talking tenths not horseshoes.
Swarf and burrs and brand new halfrings aren't quite as flat as used ones.
And used valves don't seat eeeexactly the same every time.

Hypothetical scenario here...

What if some of the half rings were installed upside down? In other words opposite of the way they were originally oriented.

Theoretically, the new surface will wear in and the clearance will increase a bit quicker.

Theoretically, these would all be on the front cylinder. So they would, theoretically, be very easy to get to.

You're talking about .0005-.001.

If you wear in both sides on all of them, it won't matter anymore. ;D

Symmetry is good sometimes.

Theoretically.

If you ride that thing like your KTM the half rings won't last long enough to matter which side is up. [evil]

My first job, we actually had our own electron microscope.
I was amazed then and probably would be even now.

The running joke was if you couldn't find something wrong using normal inspection then the eScope could find a huge⁽¹⁾ _____ somewhere and that _____ was obviously the problem.

(1) Size being relative after all.

---------------------------------

Ideally, one would flip the half rings every 1k miles a few times then every 6k would be fine after that.
I mean people rotate their tires so it should be no issue.

This is of course the proper time to mention you could've fitted MBP collets and avoided a lot of these dilemmas.
But no worries you would have had other substitute dilemmas (We'd have seen to that).

Seriously the MBP bits are heaps easier to handle and cannot be installed upside down and on 7mm stuff that's even more awesome.

----------------------------------

Symmetry is theoretical, there's just varying degrees of closeness.

----------------------------------


This is relevant.

[laugh]

You guys make me sound abusive

And?

This thread is not for people that don't own Supersports to antagonize people that do  :-*

 ;D

None of you are wrong.

Unfortunately I do not own one of the handsome tanks so I've just got a bunch of SuperSport bits really.

DP did touch on a truth, all of the clearances seem to stay nicer longer if you don't rev the snot out of it.
Peak torque at 5k and peak power at 7k you can braap around all day long 3k to 6k with big lines and it's great.

I tend to run engines low. I cruise where it feels best. Generally right before the torque curve ramps up.

That lets me do a lot of acceleration/deceleration with just throttle without shifting

I've got a customer with a full tilt 848 and a stock FZR400.

I rode the FZR and they're nothing below 10k
Half my brain is screaming and banging the table and shouting SHIFT
The other half is saying to wait until it sounds like it'll explode then wait some more and it'll be fine
Just can't do it

Yep. I hear you. Things last longer when you're not on the limiter.

Also, left you a message on your shop phone tonight (my time)

 
But there is one still running around that I thoroughly molested, and I saw what you did to your last SS, so here I am.  ;D

Id love to know why that engine detonated. It did not meet an honorable end.

Better that than being left to rust away behind some garage

There's that I guess. That engine dropped a valve and that's what caused all the damage.

I always wondered if it was me not seatint the half rings correctly on the closing shims. Thinking more back on it, I did run that motor for a little while before it exploded. Test run up and down the road etc

I feel like if I didn't seat the half rings correctly that problem would have become apparent immediately

Your clearances would have suddenly been off if you didn't have it seated right, you would have known before you put it back together

Got the FCR's and air box in tonight. The air box was a gigantic pain in the balls.

Oil cooler is back in place and the tank is back on. Even connected and hose clamped the fuel lines ;D

I cut off the tab which holds the cable tied loom on the steering lock/ignition. That gives 5mm more clearance for the air box. I separate the air box from the battery box for ease of assembly/disassembly. I relieve the battery box with a Dremel to expose the tops of the FCRs to allow dynamic synch and easy access for needle changes.

The first or second oil change on my S4 I found a single half-ring on the magnet.
From my memory it suddenly got really huge like I was zooming in on it but I think it was just my eyes bugging out like bugs bunny in a cartoon.
When I calmed down a little I thought about it and concluded that the valve stem would've snapped in short order on a 7mm.
I think you'd have a little longer with an 8mm valve but I'm just not seeing a 2:1 safety factor in that.
But not so much that, as the load path gets eccentric and a good bit of freeplay as well.
In my general experience those two events on a hard working mechanism and it detonates quick.
It'll just bend the valve end back and forth til it breaks then the valve falls inside.

Are you going to seat of the pants tune the carbs, or do you have a dyno guy?

Pants. If it seems to run well I'm not touching it. Carburator is french for "leave it alone"

Keihin is Japanese for plan to screw with them. ;D

I have a 41 single on my supermoto and it's been set and forget.

Was it OEM?

I wasn't saying that they get out of adjustment. Getting it set ,optimally, can be the challenge.

Well.. It is oem.

But, it also used to be a 39.

My point is that KTM had already done the jetting work from, most likely, intensive dyno time.

With all the jet possibilities/combinations available on the Keihins it could be easy to get lost. Would be for me. Maybe you'll bolt them on and they'll be perfect, or close enough. If not Tony and Nick have seat of the pants experience with them.

I'm crossing my fingers. I do not look forward to ever reinstalling the air box.

That's a miserable job regardless of which carbs are in there.

I can see why pod filters are a thing.

Would losing the air box as an air reservoir change things?

Would this work?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264181749557

Speeddog, sorry man. You've been really hard to get ahold of. I wanted to buy that shock and a spring for it from you but I need to keep this project moving along.

Shock and fork rebuild are all that's keeping this thing from rolling down the road. That and any unknown issues ;D

Sorry, I've been distracted.
Give me a call when you've got a chance, lots to discuss...

It would change the jetting requirements. Whether or not it increases, or decreases, power I can't say. I don't think it would change much at the revs an SS maxes out at. It'll sure make a lot more noise.

Great talking to you today.

I just remembered, I need a set of front brake pads added to your list. Leaking forks oiled them.

Likewise!  [beer]

I'll get a set, easy.

Back at it since more parts came in.

Got the late model shock installed with a spring for my weight.

Rear hugger is on. Though, I'm pretty sure The hugger that I had was from a later model injected bike. The mounting point for the chain guard doesn't line up with the chain guard that I have. But it will do for now.

Started working on fork rebuilds as well. Got some racetech springs to put in there as well as new seals.  I got through the first one with a few minor issues. But it's back together. It seems to work although the rebound adjuster has to be screwed past where the clickers stop clicking in order to do anything. The head of the rebound adjuster is about maybe three to four millimeters recessed into the fork cap.  I have no idea if this is how they were before I took them apart. I backed everything all the way out before disassembly.

Working on the second fork, I have all the guts out and I'm trying to separate the inner and outer tubes. I am not having much luck. I can tell from debris inside the outer tube that I am basically skiving the inner bushing through the outer bushing.

I can see the oil seal is starting to make its way out and it's about flush with where the snap ring sits but I cannot get it to move any further.

Does anyone have any tricks or tips for separating fork tubes that don't want to come apart?  I was hoping to get this second one done today and have them both installed but I don't think that's going to happen.  This sucker is stuck good.

You should probably start a thread in tech about the issues.

Me? I'd send them to Eric. ;)

I can't quit now. I've come too far.

Off to tech..

Keep fixing them...

until they're broke. :P

It's already broke. I'm just trying not to break it more.

That's why I send them to Eric. [laugh]

[laugh]

BIG SUCCESS TODAY BOYS!

Finally ol' ML gets a W.

I was able to fix the fork I already had back together. The one that had to have the rebound screwed to China to do anything. I had the lock nut on backwards which kept the top cap from screwing down far enough. Once I had that flipped over I reset the rebound adjuster on the top cap and put it back on. All is well.

Now for my trials and tribulations with the other fork that refused to come apart. There was absolutely zero chance of the slide hammer method working. I resign myself to removing the fork lower from the chrome stanchion and sliding it up through the outer fork tube and removing it out the top.

This worked. But it took some engineering and CNC machining to accomplish it. I don't think there's any chance I could have done this with just a fork vise.  That fork lower is on there

I had to heat it up big time with the heat gun to even get the locking set screw to back out. They use loctite on there. And not the kind that lets you take shit apart. 

(https://farm66.staticflickr.com/65535/50683646588_0016ec6a44_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kdJWkE)
Generated by http://tools.sportscard.trade (http://tools.sportscard.trade)

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(https://farm66.staticflickr.com/65535/50684409026_8fd2d8ea1d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kdNQZ9)
Generated by http://tools.sportscard.trade (http://tools.sportscard.trade)

(https://farm66.staticflickr.com/65535/50684409481_4f15831342_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kdNR7Z)
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(https://farm66.staticflickr.com/65535/50683649888_25702407b5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kdJXjy)
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Sooo...

tell everyone how much that clamp would cost if we asked you to make one. ;D

Maybe $100

(https://farm66.staticflickr.com/65535/50687715843_7b56f04355_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ke6MZe)
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Oh hell yeaah!

Now that's a breaker bar. [evil]

[laugh]

<the website I use to convert Flickr urls to img links the dmf will digest is down so you'll actually have to click the link to see things today>

More work on the SS today. Got the forks all tightened down in the triples and got it sitting back on its tires. I had to sit on it and make motorcycle noises in my head.

https://flic.kr/p/2kiuqPZ

I got the gas cap reinstalled. Not very difficult once I was able to get the seal ring to stay in place.

I also started on pulling the ground and starter cables to replace them with larger gage higher stand count wire. That always seemed to help with initial cranking speed and ease of starting.

I like to remove the factory terminal and reuse it. In this case I was able to pry the crimp tabs open, clean it up with scotch brite, recrimp onto the new wire and add a blob of solder for good measure.

Pictured here is the terminal that was on the starter. It was pretty ugly after being down low where debris and moisture can get at it. The other end of the cable is hidden up in the bike on the solenoid and is fairly well protected from the elements. It looked almost new.

https://flic.kr/p/2kiydeP

https://flic.kr/p/2kiur5U

https://flic.kr/p/2kiureb

That's a mad ass, shit eatin' grin. ;D

Can't help it. Good motorcycles make me happy :D

Your what?

[bang]

My happy.. Face?

make the beast with two backs, I don't know.

 [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [Dolph]

More work today. Got the ground cable all done and installed it along with the starter cable.

https://flic.kr/p/2kiSN1M

https://flic.kr/p/2kiSgLc

I also swapped out the right side engine cover for a machined out one I inherited years ago. I had it saved for just such an occasion.

I'm glad I did this as it gave me the chance to find out that the OEM clutch was slagged. The stack height was short some 1.5mm.

Luckily the spare engine that came with the bike had an aftermarket aluminum (Barnett?) clutch that I was able to harvest.

https://flic.kr/p/2kiNuF5

Very clean in there [thumbsup]

https://flic.kr/p/2kiSNF9

https://flic.kr/p/2kiNv5r

Wrong color on the side cover and you stuck with the steel basket?!?   [Dolph]

Lookin good Kevin [thumbsup]

Yeah I'm aware of the color change. It's not bothering me yet.

Fun fact, the two covers are different where the oil pressure sender screws in. On the original cover there is a "washer" surrounding the tapped hole that's part of the casting. The sender threads in and seals on it.

On the cover I installed there is the opposite. That area is actually counter bored and would not seal on the sender this bike had. Luck was on my side again and I was able to find a copper seal washer in my collection. I *think* it will seal up ok.

As for the basket, I'm working with parts already on hand. Oem in this case.

Though, I did have thoughts of taking the basket to the shop to add some holes in it to lighten it up.


[thumbsup]

Satin black VHT on the clutch cover I reckon. [thumbsup]

I probably should just to make it look better. That cover has seen some shit.

Some early Superlights had those vented alloy covers. Others were carbon, but some of 851/888 SP models had those vented alloy covers too.  [thumbsup]

So it's factory?  But not for the ssfe it sounds like. It's not carbon. Definitely aluminum or steel but I think aluminum.

Early Corse style and later copied by aftermarket.

Covers on the supermono were vented as such, magnesium and a funky green color...

Mine isn't green. I'd be surprised if it was mag. Though, in not sure how to tell mag from aluminum.

Spent the end of the afternoon making some titanium washers to replace some missing ones.

https://flic.kr/p/2kjTcby

The two in the front haven't been deburred yet.

Oh hell yeaah!

“Hello All, I replied to another post in another section and it reminded me of this bit of information. One of the other fellows posted a method for checking for magnesium, he said to file shavings from the part, put them into a pile and apply an oxy-acetylene flame to them, if they sparked and burned the material was likely magnesium. The method that I typically use requires silver nitrate, you apply a drop of this solution to the part to be tested, if the droplet turns the material black it is likely magnesium, if the droplet stays clear it is probably aluminum. One variation to this would be the possibility that the material is pot metal, it can also turn black when silver nitrate is applied, the pot metal part would be considerably heavier than the magnesium piece and will help to differentiate between pot metal and magnesium.”

Looks like I'll have to do some investigating tomorrow with a file and a lighter.  My money's on aluminum.

I quoted a job out of mag once. Had to include the cost of a class D fire extinguisher in the quote. Spent a lot of time on the phone with my insurance carrier finding out how long it takes to get paid after I torched a $125k mill and how long until I could replace it.

Didn't get the job.

 :D [evil]

https://youtu.be/nGLbxw73GFw

[laugh]

I’d put the odds of it being Magnesium at the same as someone winning the lottery...

More work today. And this is probably it until the spring when I can try to test fire it. All that was left today was to get the fairings on. A bunch of hardware was missing with the bike when I got it especially all the washers to mount the fairing. I ended up making my own from titanium. What else was I supposed to do?

I've been sitting here looking at the bike for the last 20 minutes. It's just... Cool I guess. I can't wait to hear it.

https://flic.kr/p/2kk9CTL

https://flic.kr/p/2kk9CTf

https://flic.kr/p/2kk9Dpv

https://flic.kr/p/2kk9DnS

https://flic.kr/p/2kk9DHX

https://flic.kr/p/2kk9DJt

https://flic.kr/p/2kk9Ea8

https://flic.kr/p/2kk997g

https://flic.kr/p/2kk9Eko

https://flic.kr/p/2kk9Emq

Big thanks to all you guys for all the help along the way!

Oh hell yeaah!  8)

You're starting to remind me of a leaner, meaner and more seasoned version of the kool-aid man [laugh]

Like, if there was an R rated version of the kool-aid man :D

 [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

Some titanium fairing spacers I made today

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50773063063_738005f982_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kmDdK2)2020-12-28_11-40-51 (https://flic.kr/p/2kmDdK2) by Kevin Ames (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156467625@N04/), on Flickr

 [thumbsup]

I didn't know you made a thread for it..

I really did not want to sell it, had a bunch of offers over the years, but I knew you were the right one.

I just never found the time to focus on it...    I picked it up and barely touched it.

So glad you'll be riding soon.  

I appreciate that. I can certainly understand wanting things to go to a good home.  I've coveted the FE for probably more than 15 years.

I'm over the moon to actually have one in my garage.