Ducati Monster Forum

today i realized how much i still have to learn about riding. I'm in my second season, and my turns are still pretty bad. I was getting on the highway on a big twisty on ramp, and i took it so slow (which is fine) but I'm not really leaning into the turn, or leaning the bike in the turns, and thus i have to take them really slow- to be honest i was embarrassed for the car that was behind my having to watch it. Then i was on the highway and there where some slight turns in the road, and i really started to over think it anytime i had to lean or turn the bike. What can i do to practice leaning into turns/taking them properly.

thanks.
tt.

Get the book Total Control by Lee Parks for some good reading on how to get better

Sign up for a track school if you can (not just a track day, one with instructors who can give you feedback).

Track schools are inredible confidence builders, also let you practice in a controlled setting with professionals critiqueing you.  I learned a lot in just two days, also you learn more about the bike and what it's capable of.  When you go off a corner (because you got to push it once or twice) you're safe.

It may be your focus here isn't quite right, tt. Trying to lean the bike probably won't work. Reason is that the lean has to be appropriate for your rate of turn, and you can't change that much while in the turn.

The only way to be leaning more is to be getting into and through the turns faster. And to do that your focus needs to be on understanding how you can steer through the turn without slowing down so much.

As an alternative to the good suggestions of racetrack practice or tuition, perhaps find a nice stretch of twisting road and have some fun riding it. You need a good surface and not much other traffic - picking the right time of day can help with the latter. Rather than trying to maximise your speed into every corner - a very likely way to run off the road - just work on flowing smoothly down the road at a conservative but pleasant pace. Brake early and gently. Accelerate gently too. Relax.  [thumbsup]

You'll get into a rhythm, get comfortable, forget about trying to lean the bike and - presumably the point - have lots of fun.

You might even lose interest in going quick on freeway on-ramps.

 

 

The one thing I learned which is really very easy is called counter steering.

Alot depends on the lenght and the angle of your handle bars but what it amounts to is this. As you approach a left hand turn push down on your left handgrip and the bike should go into a left hand lean.

Same for a right hand turns. Just push down on your right handgrip as you enter a corner or curve and your bike will lean to the right

I was amazed w/ my S4Rs how easy it turned that way.

The 1st time I tried it I started laughing because it was like magic.

Now on my 1098 R , it is harder because I have shorter clip-on bars so I don't get the same kind of leverage as on the S4Rs.

On my 1098 R and BMW K1200S I tend to hang off the side of the bike of the direction of the corner so that my weight is helping me pull the bike to the inside of the corner but that is something that takes more practice and I wouldn't suggest trying that at this stage of your riding skills.

Try the counter steering , and don't be afraid to have some speed going into the corner , at least the speed limit if not alittle more since it produces a feeling of a gyroscope pulling you around the corner.   Dolph

+1 on track day! But if you can't go,just ride as much as you can and practice somewhere that's clear of traffic for now.Oh wear proper gears,ride safe [thumbsup]

+1 on the track day I would also add some points that I found important myself

Its all about confidence

1) Tyres, if you are nervous then get the same tyres that your faster friends use, then that takes the tyre worries out of the equation, one less thing to worry about. If you have no friends and your tyres are more than a few years old, invest in some modern rubber. Do not think track tyres are better. Fast road rubber is more suitable for the beginner who is going to the track occaisionally, Michelin Pilot Powers, Pirelli Diablo, Bridgestone BT16 etc. etc. Its all about confidence.

2) Relax, I could not turn my M1000 at all, it was horrible.... then I discovered... I had a death grip on the bars. Relax your arms and shoulders completely. Use your knees and stomach muscles to support yourself. No force should go through the bars at all(except for any steering input)

3) Go on a track day, there are faster riders to challenge yourself with, there are instructers and best of all there are the same turns again and again and again, exactly what you need to build gradually and increase confidence.

4) Body position, don't worry about hanging your butt off, try to position the inside shoulder above the inside handlebar in the curve, that is you try to lean your body into the curve. I find myself natrually shifting my butt an inch or so to the inside when I do this.

5) Concentrate on being smooth, no sudden braking and don't just crack the throttle wide open, apply it progressively. No sudden changes of line, pick you line through the curve beforehand and stick to it (unless obstruction etc. appears of course).

6) Corner speed, slow in, fast out. You are never going to relax if you feel you are going too fast. Always be aware on the road, you must be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. So no insane speeds around blind bends.

6) View, look at where you want to go, that should be first the cliping point(apex) then the exit of the corner. If you do not know what an apex is then just concentrate on the exit. Do not look at a point 5 yards in front of the bike. Do however spare a few seconds to scan the road surface to avoid any oil/gravel etc.

This is the very basic stuff, the next level; I think that is best taken up with an instructor on a track.

Riding is all about a combination of techniques, on the track you will find that you are faster than some people in certain situations and slower in others. Example, somebody can out brake you into the corner, but you have a better line and pass him again on the exit of the corner.

Everyone has weak areas, depending on the way you ride, so the "just do this" kind of advice is of limited benefit unless the person advising can actually see you ride.

Hi tristantumble  (and everyone else  ;D )

There are a thousand things you can do to improve your riding skills, but this would have to be at the top of my list for basic cornering techniques,

Counter Steering !!!

This was already mentioned by DoubleEagle, and it can change you riding life instantly!

Find a quiet bendy bit of road you are familiar with and ride through at a reasonable speed - say the speed limit or a bit less. Not too slow.
Ride with both arms slightly bent, not rigid and straight.
As you approach a RIGHT hand corner PUSH the RIGHT handle bar FORWARD !
The bike will automatically lean to the right and you then just follow through the corner naturally
As you approach a LEFT hand corner PUSH the LEFT handle bar FORWARD !
The bike will automatically lean to the left and you then just follow through the corner naturally

Dont try and force the bike to lean. The bike will lean automatically.
If you haven't been doing this already you will be instantly amazed at how well it works. INSTANTLY I SAY [cheeky]
Once you start doing this it feels very natural. Remember Push Right to Go Right. Push Left to Go Left.

I guarantee this will improve you sex life through the roof. In less then half an hour you will have improved cornering 1000%. I guaranteee It  [thumbsup]

Let us know how you go

What model bike are you riding? Do you trust your bike? I know if I ride a bike that is not setup for my weight I will not ride it hard at all.

You may try to find someone to ride with that can show you how to take some turns at certain speeds.

Good luck friend.  [thumbsup]

This is a good explanation of counter-steering and should really help your riding.  I agree with the other members that suggested you go to a riding school to get some instruction and coaching as it is safer to try new things in a controlled environment with trained instructors available for observations and tips.  One thing I'd like to point out in this explanation of counter-steering that I find helpful is the word "forward".  Instead of pushing down on the left bar to go left, the distinction here is to push FORWARD on the left bar to turn left.  What this does is require less effort to get the bike turned then if you were trying to push DOWN.  What is also does is helps to initiate a bend in your elbows, as you will be able to push forward better if your elbows are bent and you kind of palm the bars. (push forward with the palm of your hands). This bend in your elbows helps keep your arms more relaxed as well.

Another really important thing to consider is how your body moves with the bike once it starts to lean.  Most riders have a tendency to stay straight up with the bike, or even lean the opposite way in the turn...so if the bike is going to the left, the rider is vertical or twisting to the right.  With your elbows bent, push forward on the left bar and let your left shoulder drop into the turn with the bike.  Keep your left elbow pointed to the ground as you go around the corner and then when it is time to change direction, push forward on the right bar and let your right shoulder drop into the turn.

"Be like a wet noodle, a floppy doll, a good passenger....be one with the motorcycle, Zen while riding!"

And get your butt to a motorcycle riding school!!!

Hope this helps :)

Misti

I love Misti's explanation of this.  I don't really feel comfortable getting the butt out of the saddle on the street (totally different story at the track), but I certainly still lead with my shoulders.    I find that my turns are so much smoother.  That and it also encourages the full head turn.  Never look at the pavement under you or right in front of your tire.  Be aware of any obstacles or debris, but don't look at it.  Looking at things other than your exit may also be causing you to lose faith. 

actually, don't push down on the bars, push forward.

thanks so much for all the great advice, i've been out of town and away from my bike (m695) so i haven't had a chance to try some of these tips out, but i can't wait. so it seems its all about the countersteering, wich i think i was doing, but probably not to its full extent. So if i want to turn right, i push the handlebar lever right? how is it different from a low speed turn? i guess im not turning the bars, but rather pushing? is that righit?

thanks, will report back with the outcome.

TT

Tristan, it's different from low speed because in low speed you tuurn into the turn, and at twisty road speeds it's "like" you are turning away from.  You push the left bar forward to innitiate a left turn, in effect, steering right, to get the bike to lean left. 

At this time, don't come out of your seat at all, Just look through the turn (all the way if you can, but as far from the bike as possible) countersteer, keep your grip on both grips relaxed, and bned those elbows.  If you stiff arm it, the bike won't ant to turn either.  If you stiff arm and death grip it, the bike won't want to do anything at all.

Seriously though, you need to get out and ride with some riding buddies that will sweep for you and help you with your technique, not just wait up occasionally. 

BTW- I rode my first bike, a 2003 SV650 for nearly five years before i ever so much as scraped a toe slider on the ground.  And I rode almost every day.  30000miles on that bike.  Ride your own pace, and be glad you've not put it down.

The Total Control book has already been suggested.  I haven't read it but I did read Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II when I first started riding and it explains many details of counter steering and other useful motorcycle riding tips.  Twist of the Wrist talks specifically about how to initiate the counter steer (arm position, direction of force, etc).  I definitely suggest getting one of these books to supplement the advice you're getting here and your subsequent riding.

Seems to me you need to RELAX, you're probably too stiff in your arms (on the bars) and definitely too stiff in your hips and legs, which is where you actually lean from...leaning into a turn should be effortless unless you're not allowing yourself to do so (fear of leaning over).  Sit astride a bench (like at a little league ballpark) and simply lean to one side or the other to see which parts of your body allow you to lean and what the lean should feel like....it's not necessary to drag your knee or even slide to one side of the seat or the other...your leg and hip joints are loose and everything flows in unison.

I feel the MSF has incorported the best suggestions into its turning drill: Slow, Look, Lean, Roll.

* When approaching the turn, slow the bike to a safe entry speed.
* Look into and through the turn, not at/where the bike is currently heading.
* Lean your body to where you're looking (thru the turn...)
* Gently roll on the throttle, which will stabilize the bike (and if the roll-on is continued, will stand it back up so that you'll have to countersteer more to keep the bike leaned over).  If you let the bike slow down too much you'll feel like you're losing control and about to tip over - keep your speed up.

Done smoothly and in the order given, you'll lean - I guarantee it!  If you look into the turn you will lean - it's automatic (actually see where your want to go - it's not an exercise in turning your head sideways), unless you fight it thru fear...(the old adage is that the bike always goes towards where you're looking). Try the drill first with a bicycle until you're comfortable doing it (pedal faster instead of rolling on the throttle), and then go back to your motorcycle.

I find countersteering to be intuitive and happens naturally when I lean, and believe that if you actually start thinking about it it impedes the ability to lean into a turn.  BTW, countersteering works down to speeds of around 6-8 mph, which is like a jog....

Go to a big parking lot on Sunday morning and ride large-radius "Figure 8s" or weaves using the drill -- you'll be amazed at how quickly you'll find it's all in your mind.

IMPORTANT, TOO: After you've mastered the parking lot, go back on the street and start paying attention to where in your lane you're entering turns (generally, in the US, this should be from the outside of the lane for left-handers and the inside of the lane for right-handers).  The books mentioned above have good writeups on this important part of taking turns at higher speeds.

This is coming from a fairly new rider (6000 miles this year on first bike) so take it with a grain of salt and please correct me, anyone, if I need it. 

I've found steering to come in little baby steps.  When I first got the bike off the truck (we're talking within minutes of getting it off the truck  ;D ;D ) and started to practice in a parking lot, (I can't recommend this enough) low speed turns were a real pain in the ass.  I could barely come up to a stop sign and turn either direction without stopping halfway through and kinda repositioning myself and the bike.  Then I discovered countersteering ;D.  I think doubleeagle said it best: as soon as you get it, you just get it and you won't be able to stop smiling. 

Once you're comfortable crusing around town at a reasonable speed, +1 on finding a nice, secluded moderately twisty road to just run up and down.  You may post here or on a local forum to find other people who could let you in on some of their favorite roads.  Once you get the counter steering down, the upper body will come pretty naturally.  Since you should already be looking through the turn, it makes it easy for the rest of your body to follow in the same direction as your head.  I felt wierd at first to have my head/face that much closer to the ground and the handlebars, but once you get over that you feel much more in control.

Always make sure you're leaning farther over than the bike.  I raced mountain bikes for years so the first thing I tried to do when I took a mid speed corner is keep my body straight up and down and lean the bike over to turn.  As you're leaning with your head inside the turn, make a conscious effort to keep the bike as upright as possible while still leaning into the turn. 

As far as getting your ass off the saddle and putting your knee down, don't even think about it.  It's clear that you're enjoying your bike, but everything comes in baby steps.  The one thing I've been doing as of late when I go out and practice form (not just an A to B ride) is simply sticking my inside knee out.  I don't necessarily try and move my ass towards the inside of the turn, but whenever I pop my knee out and get my upper torso out over the bars, I can easily feel my body want to eek its way towards the inside of the turn.  Plus it forces you to plant your outside leg in between the peg and the tank which gave me a much better read on how the chassis was reacting to the turn. 

Everyone's telling you the same thing over and over (because it's good info), just thought some newbie to newbie advice was in order. Everybody learns differently though. Good luck, and always remember that the bike has (90% of the time) a lot more performance left in it than you think. 

Misti, thank you so much for distinguishing between DOWN and FORWARD.  I know I have heard it before but the distinction never registered until you articulated it.  Today on my ride into work I tried it out, pushing FORWARD, and it was incredible the difference I feel.  Also dropping the left shoulder is a most helpful imagery.

Thanks again!!!

 

YAY!!!   [thumbsup]  Great to hear and I'm glad you tried it and noticed how much it works!  Most of the time riders to TOO MUCH WORK on the bike.  I always try to coach my riders to DO LESS when riding, it is less effort with more reward and then you can spend that energy on enjoying the ride and riding LONGER :)

Ride safe!

Misti

+1 on Total Control - I try to work on at least one of the things it reccomends on every ride.

Does anyone have any reccs for a specific track school in the South? I live in South Louisiana.

Hmm... so everyone uses countersteering to lean in turns? I have tried it a couple of times simply turning the wheel from left to right and I know the way it works but I never use it when leaning in turns, it seems to be too sharp and changing the direction too quick for me. When I drive above slow speeds like 10mph I don't use the steering bar at all. It just remains straight all of the time and I just lean with the body weight all of the time - it doesn't take much effort to do so and the lean seems to be very gradual without sharp falling over from one side.

So is the countersteering considered to be a better / safer way of leaning the bike?

much covered here:   http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=1596.0

Another noob here with 7k miles this year so there are definitely others with vastly more knowledge than I.  That said, I noticed your avatar is a m696. I also found that I could just lean to turn my m695 because it weighs next to nothing. Its almost like the bike wants to turn itself.  However, when I've needed to tighten up my line....aggressive cornering at speed or sudden emergency like an oversized truck in my lane at the apex of a blind right....countersteering will save your life.  I've found that leaning the bike will only take it down so far unless I also cut back a lot on throttle.  This all takes time though.  By countersteering, leaning out, and looking through the corner, I've found that I can very quickly tighten up my line and still carry good speed through the turn.  I'm still amazed at what the bike can do.  [moto]

I bet you're both countersteering even when not conscious of it.   You simply cannot get through a series of turns without doing it.

You could sit bolt upright and change direction very quickly using input at the bars only.

You cannot change direction very quickly without moving the bars.

This is required basic understanding for safe motorcycling.

The video available of two goldwings hustling through the gap are a good example.

Schwantz is near Atlanta.  I've never been, but I did some research on it and it gets high marks from just about everybody.

For the OP: if you haven't taken the MSF Basic Rider Course, DO SO. I cannot urge you strongly enough.

The books mentioned will be a great resource to you, but nothing compares to 2 days of having your riding critiqued by someone who knows what to watch for from a beginner. You will probably cut about a year off your learning curve, and it may just save your life.

Its also a really good time.

I used to ride a bicycle a lot.. a few days ago I tried if countersteering works on it as well.. Guess what - you cannot make a turn unless you do the countersteering. I have been riding bicycle for years and years without knowing it so I guess I do the same on the bike.

Trust your tires,it will stick.

Excellent point!  Most people, when they think they are just leaning with their body weight into the turn are actually putting some pressure on the bars and therefore counter steering without really realizing it.  If you consciously work on pressing the left bar to go left and pressing the right bar to go right, you will be able to steer your bike the most effectively.  If you find that it turns too sharp or too much then just vary the AMOUNT of pressure you put on the bars not how LONG you push the bars for.  A lot of people make the mistake of pushing the bar and then holding it throughout the remainder of the corner but you don't need to do that.  Just push the bar until you are at the lean angle you want and then release the pressure.

Ride safe!

Misti

Another thing...

I've known about counter steering since i was a kid riding a bike... but after many years off of 2 wheels, just got onto a  [moto].

I use counter steering intuitively, like everyone who does it not knowing they're doing it.  The thing that you notice once you're doing it deliberately, is that you'll enter your turns much more quickly.

Still, though i practice it constantly (the whole 3 months i've been riding), the other day i came up on a car a little quicker than suspected, and reacted by pulling left to go left.  WRONG!!!  Luckily, i had plenty of time to correct.  But it just goes to show, you need to drill it and practice it until it's not just second nature, it's natural.

There are many mentions, in many posts, about people who have been riding forever, and should know better, but when push came to shove, and the obstacle jumped in front of them, they (counter)steered into it rather than away, because flinch reflex tells you "steer away" which is counter to what you want to do.

I would still consider myself a noob when it comes to riding, but one thing i have noticed is that the more you lean into a corner, the easier it is to push on the inside bar.  It almost feels to me like leaning and countersteering is just one input to turn the bike.

well.. I paid more attention and of course I do countersteering.. I was thinking that I lean but while leaning I was putting some pressure on the inside bar hence the countersteering. Now knowing it and messing around with it in some corners controlling it is a lot better  [thumbsup]

Great to hear!  A lot of riders do exactly what you just described, and as soon as you realize consciously what you are doing to steer the bike, you can then work on getting better control.  Things like sitting back a bit in the seat so that your arms can be bent and pushing FORWARD on the bars instead of down on the bars will also help.  Keep at it and ride safe!

Misti

Thanks, will try that out too ;)

I don't know if this will help anybody, but I just came to this realization last night that at speeds >20mph, the bike pretty much rides itself with minimal input.  Basically, I stopped trying to force it to turn and started letting it turn with very slight input from me....  I feel like if I stay loose and visualize a line, I don't have to do more than make a casual suggestion to the bike, and it does it happily.  The lean happens by itself.  I feel like the more I do, the sketchier the turns feel, and the bike just gets confused.  is this what everybody talks about when they say "stay relaxed?"

Anybody know what I'm talking about?

~Tak (aka SuperNewb)

you naturally countersteer the bike when you lean into turns......it is impossible to turn without moving the handlebars.......example....Keith Code's no bs bike : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nRUeEkS644

You prove the point that everyone actually does counter steering.   But some still found it harder to turn, and I guess it's what he was asking about.

Stay relaxed means that, except for the specific muscles used to give the imputs desired, none of your muscles should be flexed. (relaxed muscles react quicker.)

Taking a leisurely line through the curves means you're leaned longer than necessary. If you look at a riding technique book (like Twist of the Wrist II or Total Control), you will notice that the "correct line" starts later than where you're probably entering your turn, makes a sharp bend, then straightens out considerably rather quickly.  I picture a slalom skier. 

I think this abrupt direction change is what makes you feel as though the turn is sketchy.   But it'll help you stop quicker (or steer around) if the cage in front of you has suddenly decided they want to stop in the middle of the road to sight-see. Because you'll be un-leaned for the most part, and have plenty of brake to squeeze (or more lean to give-if you're swerving).

What makes this the correct line?  Doesn't it effectively tighten up the corner?  Lean time is minimized, but it comes at the expense of an abrupt input and a high lean angle (although for a brief amount of time).

I'll give one possible answer to my own question: a late apex lets you peek around the corner to see what's coming--a nice advantage on the street.  Personally, I've been taught different lines on the track, though.

There are many reasons... and the books will tell you more than i can from having read them through once each, but i'll try-

What you said -

-yes. This is very helpful on the street. (and as long as you're not pushing the bike past it's lean limit, you're fine)

-also.  If you pick your turn point (it'll be a place you can see) you get most of the lean done on pavement you know doesn't have gravel on it.  As opposed to having 3/4 as much lean for twice as long, in which case you'll be leaned when you come across that sandy patch around the bend.  If you're already straight when you hit it, no biggie.

- and you have plenty of lean to use to avoid that afore mentioned sandy spot or any random deer.

If you're asking why it would be better on the track-

-It gives you a longer straightaway until you need to brake for your turn... that's longer you get to go faster.

-It gets you back on the gas faster... that means you're accelerating while the other guy is still turning.

That's a good summary--thanks.  It sounds like a point-and-shoot style, but I can see where it would have its advantages.

When done correctly, countersteering is extremely effective in getting the bike turned with minimal effort.  Sometimes it feels like you just give it the suggestion to turn, with a little push on the bars and the bike falls into the turn.  That is what you are aiming for when riding and being more relaxed will help with that.

A mistake that a lot of people make is that once they have initiated the turn in, they continue to push on the inside bar throughout the turn.  Not only does this continue to lean the bike over further but it will make it feel more unstable because you have extra tension on your arms and on the bars.  Sounds to me like this is what you are describing when you talk about the turn feeling sketchy.  You press on the bar to get the bike to turn in and then you really do nothing else, stay relaxed, until it is time to countersteer out of the turn.

So, yes, I think that is what people are talking about when they say stay relaxed.
 [moto]
Misti

wow that souds familiar to me, i've done that and you're right

What I meant by "sketchy" is more of a feeling of twitchiness in the handling of the bike that happens when I feel like I'm really trying to push the steering input... I'm not trying to match the radius of the turn all the way around or make it happen at the end.

Good, now stop doing it  [beer] hahahah!

Takster,
I'm not saying that is exactly what you are doing, just suggesting what might be causing that twitchiness.  The other thing that sometimes happens is when riders try to quick steer the bike right, they push on the right bar and almost at the same time they put a little counter pressure on the left bar (as if they are unconsciously trying to stop the bike from leaning over too far) that might be it as well, or you could just have a twitchy feeling bike.....

Misti

I think you definately have a point, I was just trying to clarify what I wrote earlier.  It's definitely not the bike.  On the same turns at the same speed, If I death-grip the bars, I feel like I have to fight the turn, but if I do it more relaxed and calmly, the bike just locks in.  I think you're absolutely right that I'm fighting my right with my left and vice versa... I'm still working on the whole zen-like calm thing... more accurately, I'm pretty new to this, so I'm really just working on the "not crapping myself when I'm going fast" thing  :)

i have been riding for about 4 months with about 1,000 city-riding miles under my belt.  i took the MSF course and pay close attention to technique, and i would rate my turning skills as "ok".  i just wanted to thank the folks who wrote in in response to this post with a very easy-to-understand explanation of counter-steering.  i have always wondered exactly how it works (or if i was already doing it without knowing).  i read the post at work this afternoon, then just tried it on my ride home tonight, and can confirm that it seems to work like magic.  once you get the feel for that pushing _forward_ motion, everything just seems to fall into place.  thanks guys!!

Wow, that was exceptionally helpful! Thanks.

You can't expect it to feel natural straight away. Ride the bike. That's all you have to do. It does feel very stiff and awkward being on a motorcycle at first, especially a 300+ lb one. It's an issue of confidence and comfort, which comes with time. Take it easy, be careful. Easy.

Track days are wonderful and maybe an MSF course would benefit you if you haven't already done it, they'll go through all the most basic stuff about turning etc.. but.. IMO if you just spend time on the bike enjoying it (not scaring yourself by pushing it too hard) you'll see progression quite quickly. You don't need to go to motorcycle schools in order to be safe or proficient on the road, although they do help.

+1000 for anyone who mentioned Lee Parks Total Control, got my copy on the way  ;D