http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26269069
[roll]
Oh puuuuuuhlease....
There are far too many twats out there.
I will not be giving my kids vaccines until they are 4-5, from everything I've heard there is a close enough correlation to autism to the vaccines to feel it isn't worth it.
As for the article, you may as well give them gloves and knee and elbow pads to play in the sandbox. Don't forget a helmet to walk around. Make sure all the games they play has no losers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcOZ6xFxJqg
delightful... [roll]
Quote from: fwtcc on August 25, 2008, 08:31:05 AM
There are far too many twats out there.
I will not be giving my kids vaccines until they are 4-5, from everything I've heard there is a close enough correlation to autism to the vaccines to feel it isn't worth it.
As for the article, you may as well give them gloves and knee and elbow pads to play in the sandbox. Don't forget a helmet to walk around. Make sure all the games they play has no losers.
Really? You're serious? My parents were vaccinated, my siblings and I were vaccinated, my wife's parents and siblings were vaccinated, both of my kids are vaccinated. We're all fine. I have seen no credible evidence that vaccines cause autism...
Quote from: NAKID on August 25, 2008, 08:38:04 AM
Really? You're serious? My parents were vaccinated, my siblings and I were vaccinated, my wife's parents and siblings were vaccinated, both of my kids are vaccinated. We're all fine. I have seen no credible evidence that vaccines cause autism...
and for x years before vaccines were created the human species thrived. I'm sure they'll be all right.
I have no problem with people who choose not to vaccinate, but to say it's becaue they cause autism? Why, that's just rediculous....
Tell that to Jim Carey's wife.
That said, just one more reason for me not to have kids. Ever.
Quote from: NAKID on August 25, 2008, 08:38:04 AM
Really? You're serious? My parents were vaccinated, my siblings and I were vaccinated, my wife's parents and siblings were vaccinated, both of my kids are vaccinated. We're all fine. I have seen no credible evidence that vaccines cause autism...
not necessarily a huge sample set, bro.
there's been no direct evidence found so far, but there are some numbers that suggest there could be a correlation.
my ex wife was a behavioral therapist for autistic kids and she was adamant about not vaccinating at a young age, as well as not living near power plants or lines.
Quote from: Ash on August 25, 2008, 08:57:43 AM
my ex wife was a behavioral therapist for autistic kids and she was adamant about not vaccinating at a young age, as well as not living near power plants or lines.
Which theory I think holds a lot more merit.
Being a radar tech for the Navy, however, I'm pretty much make the beast with two backsed either way.
just to be clear..... this tread is sort of about the pussification of children in the US of A, not about the pros and cons of giving kids shots. ;)
If this shit is a real threat to parents the nation over..... we have waaaaaaay too much time on our hands.
get back to work ya lazy make the beast with two backss
Err... I mean... Yeah... Candy-assed little pregnant doges.
Won't ever amount to anything anyway.
For the record, I like the Titus family model.
<raises hand>
I have a question
If the other kids are vaccinated
then what is the risk of being around the non vaccinated kid?
It's kinda like all the kids have rain gear but they cant be around the kid without rain gear cuz they might get wet?
I don't get it
So someone explain the problem with the parent's concern.
The immunization system works, and has for decades, because everyone is immunized. People who don't get their kids immunized expose them to greater risks, while also exposing the immunized kids to greater risks (immunization not 100% effective in child yet, or child hasn't been immunized yet).
For instance, whooping cough used to kill 5,000 - 10,000 people per year in the US. Immunizations have reduced that to less than 30 per year. However, cases of whooping cough are now steadily increasing...there was just a large outbreak in a community north of Seattle this year. The disease is coming back because some people refuse to immunize their children.
Those that don't immunize their children are reaping the benefits of those that do, while simultaneously increasing the risks for those that do...a pretty hypocritical position.
So everyone here jumps on the parents who are concerned about letting their kids interact with non-immunized children when the science suggests there is an increased risk to them. Yet at the same time, no criticism is directed at the parents who don't immunize from a fear of Autism...for which there is NO scientific evidence. ???
Why don't we ALL stop immunizing our children, and see what happens in the next decade or two.
"When I was a kid, we were happy to go out and swing a brick on the end of a cat gut at each other" paraphrasing some comedian I heard years ago
I'm of the what-doesn't-kill-me-makes-me-stronger school of thought. If every kid out there never got sick, it will just make them more vulnerable to the next superbug/round of food poisoning. Maybe these parents should visit some backwater in Africa and look at kids dying of AIDS, malaria etc to remind them of how good they really have it, and to stop pregnant doging about this kind of nonsense.
Now pass the antibacterial hand spray, my keyboard is probably crawling with all kinds of icky germs.
mommy..... can Timmy come over and play in my bubble?
Quote from: Mother on August 25, 2008, 09:39:47 AM
<raises hand>
I have a question
If the other kids are vaccinated
then what is the risk of being around the non vaccinated kid?
It's kinda like all the kids have rain gear but they cant be around the kid without rain gear cuz they might get wet?
I don't get it
Because vaccines are not 100% effective immediately, and some also wear off after time.
If everyone is vaccinated these vulnerabilities aren't too much of a concern.
But if an un-vaccinated kid comes over, and happens to be infected with whooping cough (as an example) during this vulnerable period, the immunized kid is now at a higher, and unnecessary, risk.
I'd be pissed if my immunized child got a disease (and possibly died) from an unimmunized child in this fashion.
I'm not saying I'd react by not letting my children play with unimmunized children...I don't have kids and would have to think a bit about it. But it is a risk (as are a lot of things).
Quote from: Ash on August 25, 2008, 08:57:43 AM
my ex wife was a behavioral therapist for autistic kids and she was adamant about not vaccinating at a young age, as well as not living near power plants or lines.
My kid is vaccinated to avoid things like polio and rubella, there's a 240MW natural gas power plant in town http://www.deltapower.com/projects/california/crockett.html (http://www.deltapower.com/projects/california/crockett.html) and power lines connect my house to the grid.
;D
Feed them all PB&J! [evil]
Quote from: Bick on August 25, 2008, 10:18:00 AM
Feed them all PB&J! [evil]
Phil, Brad, and Jeremy?
Quote from: Ash on August 25, 2008, 08:57:43 AM
not necessarily a huge sample set, bro.
there's been no direct evidence found so far, but there are some numbers that suggest there could be a correlation.
my ex wife was a behavioral therapist for autistic kids and she was adamant about not vaccinating at a young age, as well as not living near power plants or lines.
Not going to argue either which way...since I don't have kids.
But IIRC that correlation between vaccines and autism was found between autism and vaccines with high amounts of mercury in them....which are no longer used. Some vaccines still contain miniscule amounts, but no more than a child would absorb from say, eating fish sticks every so often for a year or two...and thus the correlation is become less and less relevant.
just throwing a little more fuel on the fire [evil]
I would keep my kids away because I don't let them hang out with kids whose parents I think are nutty. I am more concerned about the other goofy things that the parents may be up to than I am about the germs.
I'm Darby Crash....and I do not endorse this thread
Quote from: bobspapa on August 25, 2008, 10:36:25 AM
I'm Darby Crash....and I do not endorse this thread
[laugh]
Quote from: Triple J on August 25, 2008, 09:52:34 AM
But if an un-vaccinated kid comes over, and happens to be infected with whooping cough (as an example) during this vulnerable period, the immunized kid is now at a higher, and unnecessary, risk.
please splain to me the point of the vaccination if it makes child more vulerable to disease
I'm starting to think these shot things are a scam
the amount of old people we xpt to the hospital with the flu after thier flu shot is astounding
Quote from: fwtcc on August 25, 2008, 08:42:45 AM
and for x years before vaccines were created the human species thrived. I'm sure they'll be all right.
"thrived" is a relative comment. the life expectancy of a male until the early 20th Century was about 40 (http://www.who.int/global_health_histories/seminars/presentation07.pdf)
And consider this.
Autism has only been identified in the last 20 years. Many kids were called "retarded" but were also lumped in with kids who had genetic or birthing-related defects which affected them.
Vaccinations in western countries began in the early 20th century. Asian countries did not start until the latter part of the 20th century (after the 70s).
Incidence of non-genetic/physical mental retardation has been consistent throughout that period.
in other words, you had the same number of "autistic" people before vaccines in both western and asian countries as after.
The "anti vaccination" crowd claims it is mercury (thimerisol) causing the problems, but here is what the FDA says about it:
http://www.fda.gov/CBER/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#pres
QuoteThimerosal as a Preservative
Thimerosal, which is approximately 50% mercury by weight, has been one of the most widely used preservatives in vaccines. It is metabolized or degraded to ethylmercury and thiosalicylate. Ethylmercury is an organomercurial that should be distinguished from methylmercury, a related substance that has been the focus of considerable study (see "Guidelines on Exposure to Organomercurials" and "Thimerosal Toxicity", below).
At concentrations found in vaccines, thimerosal meets the requirements for a preservative as set forth by the United States Pharmacopeia; that is, it kills the specified challenge organisms and is able to prevent the growth of the challenge fungi (U.S. Pharmacopeia 2004). Thimerosal in concentrations of 0.001% (1 part in 100,000) to 0.01% (1 part in 10,000) has been shown to be effective in clearing a broad spectrum of pathogens. A vaccine containing 0.01% thimerosal as a preservative contains 50 micrograms of thimerosal per 0.5 mL dose or approximately 25 micrograms of mercury per 0.5 mL dose.
Prior to its introduction in the 1930's, data were available in several animal species and humans providing evidence for its safety and effectiveness as a preservative (Powell and Jamieson 1931). Since then, thimerosal has been the subject of several studies (see Bibliography) and has a long record of safe and effective use preventing bacterial and fungal contamination of vaccines, with no ill effects established other than minor local reactions at the site of injection.
While the use of mercury-containing preservatives has declined in recent years with the development of new products formulated with alternative or no preservatives, thimerosal has been used in some immune globulin preparations, anti-venins, skin test antigens, and ophthalmic and nasal products, in addition to certain vaccines. Under the FDA Modernization Act of 1997, the FDA compiled a list of regulated products containing mercury, including those with thimerosal (Federal Register 1999). It is important to note that this list was compiled in 1999; some products listed are no longer manufactured and many products have been reformulated without thimerosal. Updated lists of vaccines and their thimerosal content can be found in Table 1 (routinely recommended pediatric vaccines) and Table 3 (expanded list of vaccines).
Moreover, as the FDA points out, you can opt to use non-thimerisol vaccines for your child:
http://www.fda.gov/CBER/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#t1
Only a few of them contain it anyhow.
There is no sane reason to avoid vaccines for a child. if it's your religion to avoid needles or whatever, fine. but those people are a tiny minority and will probably die off from diptheria or hepatitis anyhow.
Quote from: Mother on August 25, 2008, 10:40:32 AM
please splain to me the point of the vaccination if it makes child more vulerable to disease
I'm starting to think these shot things are a scam
the amount of old people we xpt to the hospital with the flu after thier flu shot is astounding
Vaccines don't make people more vulnerable to a disease, obviously. However, children have to be of a certain age to receive certain vaccines...the vaccines themselves aren't 100% effective immediately (actually ever...nothing really is)...and some gradually wear off over time. These are unaviodable vulnerabilities in the vaccine process. If everyone is vaccinated, the risks of these vulnerabilities is minimized. When you introduce unvaccinated children the risk increases. That is the point.
The shots are a scam. Really? You know anyone (born in the US in the last 40-50 years) that has ever had measles, mumps, polio, etc.?
The flu shot is a different issue. Different strains for different years and it's a guess what it will be in a given year. Sometimes they guess right...sometimes not. That's my understanding anyway...and the reason I don't get flu shots. The flu isn't that big of a deal anyway...unless you're old, when a lot of things are a big deal.
Quote from: Triple J on August 25, 2008, 10:49:03 AM
The shots are a scam. Really? You know anyone (born in the US in the last 40-50 years) that has ever had measles, mumps, polio, etc.?
I wasn't being serious ;)
but yes
Measles and Polio
not the mumps though never even seen it
Quote from: Mother on August 25, 2008, 10:59:20 AM
I wasn't being serious ;)
but yes
Measles and Polio
not the mumps though never even seen it
I have seen ppl with measles and polio too.
Both were in people belonging to religious groups who refuse to vaccinate.
Quote from: Triple J on August 25, 2008, 10:49:03 AM
Vaccines don't make people more vulnerable to a disease, obviously. However, children have to be of a certain age to receive certain vaccines...the vaccines themselves aren't 100% effective immediately (actually ever...nothing really is)...and some gradually wear off over time. These are unaviodable vulnerabilities in the vaccine process. If everyone is vaccinated, the risks of these vulnerabilities is minimized. When you introduce unvaccinated children the risk increases. That is the point.
The shots are a scam. Really? You know anyone (born in the US in the last 40-50 years) that has ever had measles, mumps, polio, etc.?
The flu shot is a different issue. Different strains for different years and it's a guess what it will be in a given year. Sometimes they guess right...sometimes not. That's my understanding anyway...and the reason I don't get flu shots. The flu isn't that big of a deal anyway...unless you're old, when a lot of things are a big deal.
I think someone was trying to get at the point that overkill is what makes us vulnerable. Constant use of disinfectants and hand sanitizer is good in hospitals, but not for everyday use. Normal germ exposure makes your body create antibodies to fight them off. Without those, things that normally would be no big deal to a normal person could make someone who uses hand sanitizer too much ill.
As far as the "flu" is concerned, no, it's not a big deal. However, "Influenza" is. That's what you are being immunized against. When you get a slight fever and the sniffles, that isn't influenza. It's likely Noro virus or something similar. The influenza vaccine is made from the three most common strains found in the southern hemisphere which gets their "flu" season before we do. Triple J is right, sometimes we pick the right ones, sometimes we don't. Influenza itself is deady.
When you get sick after you get your shot, you are likely succombing to something that was already in your body but were fighting off. The shot causes an immune response that makes your body more succeptible to other germs.
Now, when I was a kid, I had chicken pox (Varicella Zoster). Now they have an immunization for it and it's rarely seen...
Coincidentally, google news gave me this:
http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/healthday/2008/08/21/measles-cases-highest-since-1996.html
Quote from: B.Rock on August 25, 2008, 11:53:58 AM
Coincidentally, google news gave me this:
http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/healthday/2008/08/21/measles-cases-highest-since-1996.html
QuoteOf the 131 people throughout the United States who contracted measles this year, 112 were unvaccinated or their vaccination status was unknown. Sixteen were under 1 year of age and too young to be vaccinated.
Ninety-five patients were eligible for the vaccination, but 63 were not vaccinated because of their parents' beliefs, officials said.
131 infected with Measles
112 unvaccinated but could have been
16 too young to be vaccinated
---
128 ppl
meaning only 3 were vaccinated and got measles.
As a father I think it's irresponsible to not vaccinate your kids.
I have two daughters that are healthy and cute as buttons, I would much rather them have a chance
of a disfiguring or crippling or even deadly disease, how is that a rational thought process?
There is a reason we don't see polio or measles or rhubela etc etc etc.
100 years ago the childhood mortality rate was higher, why is that?
Quote from: VisceralReaction on August 25, 2008, 01:01:06 PM
100 years ago the childhood mortality rate was higher, why is that?
No turkey bacon? [bacon]
Turkey bacon was eradicated. Now that it's back, it's a sign of the apocalypse...
Quote from: NAKID on August 25, 2008, 08:40:52 PM
Turkey bacon was eradicated. Now that it's back, it's a sign of the apocalypse...
Thats becasue people slipped on giving the vaccine.
(its liquid pig fat by the way, injected through the oral cavity by the pounds)
Quote from: ducatizzzz on August 25, 2008, 10:42:51 AM
The "anti vaccination" crowd claims it is mercury (thimerisol) causing the problems, but here is what the FDA says about it:
http://www.fda.gov/CBER/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#t1
There is no sane reason to avoid vaccines for a child. if it's your religion to avoid needles or whatever, fine. but those people are a tiny minority and will probably die off from diptheria or hepatitis anyhow.
Thank you
I spoke with my pediatrician about this before we got the shots done on my seven-month-old (at three and six months, that is). He very patiently explained the science. He also assured me that they did not use multi-dose vials (why thimerosol was needed in the first place), which is basically all I needed to hear. He's a great guy. He managed to make the standard spiel to the paranoid parent sound like a very reasoned, cogent discussion about the possible risks involved in vaccination.
But, there was still some lingering -and I knew, irrational- doubt. Well, worry. What if the science was wrong? I always kept a really close eye on her for a the couple days following the shots. She's fine. And vaccinated.
My point is that I understand the paranoia that can come with being a parent. But the choice was to act on my worry and run an outside chance that she won't "develop" autism, or act on my rationality and run a 100% chance of her not catching a bunch deadly diseases. Rationality won. Rationality did a flying one-handed dunk over worry and broke the backboard. Guh GOOOOSH.
People may still come up with reasons to not vaccinate their children. To me, they are not good reasons. But for anyone considering this, please, PLEASE do better than "I heard that..." or "my friend said..." This does not meet the basic criteria for making a good decision as a parent. I'm not trying to be a d1ck here, but set your bar higher.
I am a pediatric ICU nurse and respiratory therapist. Over the years (and increasingly often) I have seen unvaccinated kids come in with whooping cough, measles, etc. The parents are always shocked and angry and surprised at the severity of the disease process. " The kids are the ones who suffer, and most parents tell me that they will go and get their kids vaccinated for everything once/if they get well. Some don't get well.
Quote from: Nitewaif on August 25, 2008, 11:57:00 PM
I am a pediatric ICU nurse and respiratory therapist. Over the years (and increasingly often) I have seen unvaccinated kids come in with whooping cough, measles, etc. The parents are always shocked and angry and surprised at the severity of the disease process. " The kids are the ones who suffer, and most parents tell me that they will go and get their kids vaccinated for everything once/if they get well. Some don't get well.
i cannot imagine. when i forget to make my boy's lunch on time i feel guilty!
Quote from: ducatizzzz on August 26, 2008, 06:04:36 AM
i cannot imagine. when i forget to make my boy's lunch on time i feel guilty!
lm and I send the boys to school w/o lunches.
a boys got'a learn how to hunt and survive. ;)
some kids consider them to be bullies..... I call it survival of the fittest.
[laugh]
Quote from: bobspapa on August 26, 2008, 08:47:28 AM
lm and I send the boys to school w/o lunches.
a boys got'a learn how to hunt and survive. ;)
some kids consider them to be bullies..... I call it survival of the fittest.
[laugh]
i agree but my boy is just shy of 12 months old.
I think too, alot of parents might be thinking of these diseases as common colds that the kids
will get over with aspirin and fluids, not realizing that the vaccines are there to prevent so many kids
and adults from dying from these diseases.
Quote from: VisceralReaction on August 26, 2008, 11:48:12 AM
I think too, alot of parents might be thinking of these diseases as common colds that the kids
will get over with aspirin and fluids,
PSA:
Don't give kids (children under 12) aspirin. It can lead to Rye Syndrome
The parents should let kids play together...the parents who vaccinated their kids can see if it works and the parents can who didn't can see if the voices in their heads were correct.
Quote from: NAKID on August 26, 2008, 05:07:56 PM
PSA:
Don't give kids (children under 12) aspirin. It can lead to Rye Syndrome
Reyes Syndrome
Quote from: RobJohn3 on August 26, 2008, 05:28:30 PM
The parents should let kids play together...the parents who vaccinated their kids can see if it works and the parents can who didn't can see if the voices in their heads were correct.
[laugh] [laugh] [laugh] :o :-\
Quote from: fwtcc on August 25, 2008, 08:42:45 AM
and for x years before vaccines were created the human species thrived. I'm sure they'll be all right.
Um, no. Until just a couple of generations ago, infant and child mortality was shockingly high. At one point, roughly a third of the total population of Europe died over a 2-3 year period. Diseases that routinely killed large numbers of people are now nearly unheard of. As a species, we have spent most of our time on earth on the verge of extinction and only for a few hundred generations has our basic survival been anywhere near assured.
Vaccinations have saved vast numbers of people at extremely low risk. The only reason anyone worries at all about risks from vaccination is that we have become so complacent that we assume our kids are going to live just fine without needing to worry about life-threatening infections in the first place. The ONLY reason that complacency is even possible is the herd immunity that results from widespread vaccination.
While we're talking about "vaccination," keep in mind that inoculating people with vaccinia (cowpox) to prevent their contracting smallpox is a recent enough idea that we know the name of the guy who introduced it. As a result of adopting this practice worldwide, you and your (unvaccinated) children now have no risk at all (zero, none) of contracting a highly-contagious disease that has killed millions of our species over almost all of recorded history. This could be achieved with a number of other diseases if it weren't for asshats who refuse to be vaccinated or to have their kids vaccinated. Instead, diseases that our parents and grandparents lived in fear of, such as infectious poliomyelitis, are starting to make a comeback.
And oddly enough, the one thing in our modern world that correlates to higher numbers of kids being diagnosed with autism is...
Anyone? Bueler? Anyone?
Cable TV. (http://www.slate.com/id/2151538) :o :o
well duh....watching Dr Phill will retard anything within fifty feet. When the bike's idle was too high.... I parked it in the living room and turned the tv on. instant fix (but I did have to put more air back in the tires)
Quote from: Drunken Monkey on August 26, 2008, 08:46:00 PM
And oddly enough, the one thing in our modern world that correlates to higher numbers of kids being diagnosed with autism is...
Anyone? Bueler? Anyone?
Cable TV. (http://www.slate.com/id/2151538) :o :o
Several folks have pointed out the same thing with regard to de-segregation of public schools.
Correlation ≠ Causation
Although, I would lay odds it is the remote control and not the # of channels.
Who ever heard of channel surfing before remotes? Getting off your ass to change the channel was real work.
Quote from: mstevens on August 26, 2008, 06:37:48 PM
Um, no. Until just a couple of generations ago, infant and child mortality was shockingly high. At one point, roughly a third of the total population of Europe died over a 2-3 year period. Diseases that routinely killed large numbers of people are now nearly unheard of. As a species, we have spent most of our time on earth on the verge of extinction and only for a few hundred generations has our basic survival been anywhere near assured.
First off, only a few hundred years? I am going to take a venture to guess that even during biblical times and those before there were as many people on earth as any other mammal, barring rodents. Especially considering there were enough to have battles and kill hundreds at a time and not deplete their specific sect enough be unable fend off attack from another group of humans. People are the only creatures to have wars and battles on as huge of a scale and have been doing it for ages. War requires population. The only exception is plains Indians who counted coo(sp?) rather than kill because they did not have as strong of numbers. People have done quite well for themselves, and they began long before the last 400-500 years.
In the last couple of generations a third of Europe died? Wow, I wonder what circumstance that could have caused that? Maybe 2 World Wars, or a Holocaust, even further still, the re-emergence of the plague as a result of the dead bodies strewn across the continent.
#2 if you read my post I did not say that I wouldn't vaccinate my child, just that I would wait after, and now I haven't researched it in the 3 years since I left college due to a lack of necessity, the age of most subscetibility of acquiring autism from the shots. I don't plan on having kids in at least 3-4 years, AT LEAST. This very well could all be solved by then, then whatever.
All in all, humans may not have been rolling along as comfortably as we are now for too long, but they have outgrown every creature that doesn't feed off of our waste, i.e. rodents and insects at a ridiculously alarming rate and have been doing so for a long time.
Quote from: fwtcc on August 27, 2008, 08:56:49 AM
People have done quite well for themselves, and they began long before the last 400-500 years.
He said few hundred
generations...not years.
Quote from: Triple J on August 27, 2008, 09:17:13 AM
He said few hundred generations...not years.
Well, there are roughly 4-5 generations a century, so 500 would be one hundred generations, at least. Seeing as children were born to younger parents without the advent of birth control and the longer life spans we now enjoy, that number is likely even smaller. Even at a couple hundred generations we are still well into civilized humanity, meaning the population was growing well enough to move out of the woods and into cities.
this guy says...... "yer all a bunch of whiney sissylalas"
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/popup?id=5536783&contentIndex=1&page=1&start=false
Quote from: fwtcc on August 27, 2008, 09:29:04 AM
Well, there are roughly 4-5 generations a century, so 500 would be one hundred generations, at least. Seeing as children were born to younger parents without the advent of birth control and the longer life spans we now enjoy, that number is likely even smaller. Even at a couple hundred generations we are still well into civilized humanity, meaning the population was growing well enough to move out of the woods and into cities.
I think your math is off. If there are 5 generations in a century, then each generation spans about a 20 year period, roughly. As such, 100 generations would encompass 2,000 years, not 500 years.
This isn't really the point though. The point is:
Quote from: mstevens on August 26, 2008, 06:37:48 PM
Vaccinations have saved vast numbers of people at extremely low risk. The only reason anyone worries at all about risks from vaccination is that we have become so complacent that we assume our kids are going to live just fine without needing to worry about life-threatening infections in the first place. The ONLY reason that complacency is even possible is the herd immunity that results from widespread vaccination.
The second point is there is no scientific link between vaccinations and autism.
Yeah, my math was off. Thanks. Even then 2000 years makes the statement a moot point for its premise seeing as vaccination is a relatively new thing. A couple hundred generations would then mean an arguement for whether or not your children should grow up in civilization or the woods. I apologize it didn't register, and refused to, since the statement was so inconsequential to the premise.
Quote from: Triple J on August 27, 2008, 09:39:19 AM
The second point is there is no scientific link between vaccinations and autism.
I think my point was more useful.
The anti-vaccine people claim mercury causes autism.
All of the vaccines are available without mercury (thimerisol).
http://www.fda.gov/CBER/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#pres
Quote from: bobspapa on August 27, 2008, 09:38:15 AM
this guy says...... "yer all a bunch of whiney sissylalas"
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/popup?id=5536783&contentIndex=1&page=1&start=false
That's Sir Sissylala, KBE, to you!!!
(Man, I bet that guy wishes he had the HPV vaccine...)
Quote from: ducatizzzz on August 27, 2008, 10:35:50 AM
I think my point was more useful.
The anti-vaccine people claim mercury causes autism.
All of the vaccines are available without mercury (thimerisol).
http://www.fda.gov/CBER/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#pres
Thank you for pointing this out ducatizzz and triple j. I am so tired of hearing these parents bring that up as a reason to not vaccinate. Buncha sheep that don't know the facts and don't bother to look them up.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on August 27, 2008, 10:37:14 AM
That's Sir Sissylala, KBE, to you!!!
(Man, I bet that guy wishes he had the HPV vaccine...)
The HPV vaccine is curently only approved for use in women and only covers 4 types of HPV. The type he has may not be in the vaccine, even if it was approved for use in men...
There are a lot of things that aren't scientific fact yet generally accepted.
Global Warming and Evolution come to mind right off the bat.
Again the numbers may have changed, and I do agree that if you make the decision it needs to be researched. I did the research 3-4 years ago and decided then that if I where to have a child right then it may be favorable to hold out till the child reaches an age of less susceptibility to autism before I have them get their shots.
Quote from: NAKID on August 27, 2008, 11:14:01 AM
The HPV vaccine is curently only approved for use in women and only covers 4 types of HPV. The type he has may not be in the vaccine, even if it was approved for use in men...
true, but i bet that guy would have gladly been a guinea pig.
maybe he can be the poster child for "get your daughter vaccinated for hpv -- this is what your cervix will look like if you don't"
Quote from: ducatizzzz on August 27, 2008, 11:29:30 AM
.... this is what your cervix will look like if you don't"
uhm,......ughh. I think I would rather see the extraction of a tampon than have the mental image this created in my head.
tree vajayjay [puke]
Quote from: ducatizzzz on August 26, 2008, 05:37:17 PM
Reyes Syndrome
[laugh] [laugh] [laugh] :o :-\
;D
I didn't want to spell out acetaminophen (sp?) at the time
Quote from: VisceralReaction on August 27, 2008, 12:54:46 PM
;D
I didn't want to spell out acetaminophen (sp?) at the time
You could have said Tylenol... ;D
Quote from: fwtcc on August 27, 2008, 11:28:43 AM
There are a lot of things that aren't scientific fact yet generally accepted.
Global Warming and Evolution come to mind right off the bat.
Again the numbers may have changed, and I do agree that if you make the decision it needs to be researched. I did the research 3-4 years ago and decided then that if I where to have a child right then it may be favorable to hold out till the child reaches an age of less susceptibility to autism before I have them get their shots.
Similarly,
(http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool4.gif)
;)
dont make me bring back the GFSOOGI
Quote from: bobspapa on August 27, 2008, 11:36:37 AM
tree vajayjay [puke]
Close -> giant mutant cauliflower [puke]
(oh the joys of being a nurse)
hey doc..... is this normal ?
[puke] [puke] [puke] [puke] [puke] [puke]
I would like to thank the contributors to page five for making my lunch a battle between hunger and nausea.
bp = weight watchers
only more cheaper
Quote from: bobspapa on August 28, 2008, 10:36:16 AM
bp = weight watchers
only more cheaper
i grew up thinking weight watchers was a fat-girl appreciation society.
damn you, greg underwood!!
Quote from: fwtcc on August 27, 2008, 08:56:49 AM
First off, only a few hundred years?
No. A few hundred generations. That takes considerably more than a few hundred years.
QuoteIn the last couple of generations a third of Europe died?
Who said that? It certainly wasn't me. As you word it, that's probably not true since over the past couple of generations, MOST of the population of Europe has died, not just a third.
QuoteWow, I wonder what circumstance that could have caused that? Maybe 2 World Wars, or a Holocaust, even further still, the re-emergence of the plague as a result of the dead bodies strewn across the continent.
During the time period to which I was referring, there certainly were bodies strewn across the continent. The "black death," which was possibly but by no means certainly a form of bubonic or pneumonic plague killed, by conservative estimates, a third of the population of Europe over a very brief period.
Quoteif you read my post I did not say that I wouldn't vaccinate my child, just that I would wait after, and now I haven't researched it in the 3 years since I left college due to a lack of necessity, the age of most subscetibility of acquiring autism from the shots.
Given that there is no age of susceptibility of acquiring autism from shots, there is no need to wait and every need to vaccinate at the proper ages. I will agree that actually reading what a post says is a Good Thing.
Quote from: fwtcc on August 27, 2008, 09:46:34 AM
Yeah, my math was off. Thanks. Even then 2000 years makes the statement a moot point for its premise seeing as vaccination is a relatively new thing. A couple hundred generations would then mean an arguement for whether or not your children should grow up in civilization or the woods. I apologize it didn't register, and refused to, since the statement was so inconsequential to the premise.
You really need to pay attention to what people are saying. In no way am I claiming that vaccination accounts for our practically guaranteed survival as a species. I am claiming that we forget at our peril that the common modern assumption that our kids will even survive to grow up is a very, very modern idea. Your grandparents would have lined up, and did, to get their kids vaccinated given their experience and that of their recent ancestors of child mortality from diseases that I haven't even seen in 20 years since medical school.
Quote from: fwtcc on August 27, 2008, 11:28:43 AM
There are a lot of things that aren't scientific fact yet generally accepted.
Global Warming and Evolution come to mind right off the bat.
Ah. It becomes clear.
"Evolution" is as much a fact as gravity. No sane person questions that it occurs. Sane people DO debate whether evolution occurs by natural selection or not, and they may debate whether species arose via such a process. As it turns out, speciation as a result of evolution via natural selection is as thoroughly established as any other concept in science.
The war on science of the last few decades does more to explain why people are able to believe that vaccines cause autism than anything else.
Originally I had typed a clever retort and it only got more clever as I added to it. Then realized you don't really make too much sense in all of the rambling. In order to respond and gather all of your information in to one coherent thought, it would be giant post and not really worth my time. So at this point. read your post. See where I could construe that which I said and you will see that I addressed things that left your fingers. May not have been what was in your mind, but it is what left your fingers. That being said, stick to your guns. When you see that you've made a mistake in what you've proposed, either acknowledge it as a mistake and correct it or stay with it.
As for the last post. You obviously have little desire to follow your own advice. No where did I say that I didn't believe in global warming, or, and especially, evolution. I, in fact, believe in both. At this point I have pointed out my opinion on the matter and that is really all I have to say about it until I have a child and updated research is in order.
wokkachikkawokkachikkawokkachikkawokkachikka
master ninja theme song!
wokkachikkawokkachikkawokkachikkawokkachikka
master ninja theme song!
wokkachikkawokkachikkawokkachikkawokkachikka
master ninja theme song!
wokkachikkawokkachikkawokkachikkawokkachikka
master ninja theme song!
wokkachikkawokkachikkawokkachikkawokkachikka
master ninja theme song!
wokkachikkawokkachikkawokkachikkawokkachikka
Quote from: mstevens on August 28, 2008, 09:47:15 PM
Ah. It becomes clear.
"Evolution" is as much a fact as gravity. No sane person questions that it occurs. Sane people DO debate whether evolution occurs by natural selection or not, and they may debate whether species arose via such a process. As it turns out, speciation as a result of evolution via natural selection is as thoroughly established as any other concept in science.
The war on science of the last few decades does more to explain why people are able to believe that vaccines cause autism than anything else.
spoken like a true scientist. ;)
...whats a Himbazoo? ???
Quote from: Lucazuma on August 30, 2008, 01:50:07 PM
...whats a Himbazoo? ???
Exotic creature native to the Galapogos Islands. Carnivorous and extrememly mean.