Ethical Question

[Howie]

well

that is just damn frustrating

I had an instructor tell me one time that what they did is not cheating

because

"a true professional knows where to get the information if they don't know the information"

or some such bullshit

I agree with "a true professional knows where to get the information if they don't know the information" but, in that case, the instructor should either supply the formulas or give an open book case.  If not, the student is indeed cheating. 

[Vindingo]

(unless the teacher said no programming of calculators, that i missed, then they are cheating)

The week before the exam the same girl who informed me of the shennanigans asked the prof if he was going to give us the formulas.  His answer was "no, you will have to memorize them"  

I guess "no, you will have to memorize them" can be left up for interpretation.  Memorize Remember to write them in ones calculator case, or program them in...


While I have decided not to say anything, nor use anything other than my brain and lowly Ti-30, I'd like to argue your point.

not to bash you, but....you are whining that life isn't fair.

Nobody likes a rat, just like others say, and even honest people hate rats because they know that when they may stray from time to time from the line they don't want a rat to rat them out because what they did may have been for a "good reason" but its still breaking the rules and they know they don't want to be ratted out.

We can agree that life isn't fair.  I learned that a long time ago when I wasn't drafted to play shortstop for the Yankees.  
Wouldn't it be unfair if I rained on their parade and made it so they had to use regular old calculators?  Its almost as if by doing so I would be in harmony with the unfair universe.  If we are talking about the real world here where it is a rat race, why not set the advantage to my favor by any means necessary?  Seems as if you are only calling for "fairness" if one has broken the "rules"  

In highschool I was suspended for 2 weeks for not ratting out my friends for stealing shit. (Catholic school honour code nonsense)  If I could go back, I still wouldn't say a word.  These people, however are not my friends.  I also disagree with your "honest people hate rats" example.  I one was honest, they wouldn't have anything to worry about.  Semantics... I know, but I bet thieves don't hate police officers until they get caught.  And, I'm sure police officers don't care if they were stealing crap to sell and buy food for their 3 kids.  

[okpanic]

If you were a professional working in the field, would you depend on your memory for the formulas or would you look them up to be absolutely sure?

[He Man]

If you were a professional working in the field, would you depend on your memory for the formulas or would you look them up to be absolutely sure?

both, sometimes you use it so much you memorize it better than then your left hand knows your balls. other times its like going lefty and you're not sure, but it seems right, but you have to check.

was that too far?? 

[superjohn]

If asked, tell the prof what you know, but otherwise let it go. I knew people in grad school that blatantly plagiarized their papers and they even had professors intervene on their behalf when it came time to interview for jobs. It still makes me angry, but I'd never rat them at since at the end of the day I am only in competition with myself and bringing someone else down to elevate me doesn't actually make me any better.

[He Man]

For some reason this thought popped into my head. I am actually quite upset right now over this.

People who get ahead without putting the effort really screw those who do. I am taking 1 class right now because of little bullshit nonsenses like that. I could of registered early if I had spoken to the registrars office and played nice with the person who registers us and ogtten in. But i took the "high" road by doing it in the manner in which it was designed. Yet I sit here punished today and unable to take a full course load.

I am desperate to graduate. I've had so many problems with registering in the past 3 years ive been in college. This is the 3rd time ive been screwed like this, but this time was the wort and the best.

So truth be told. make the beast with two backs everyone. When it comes to academics, I really dont care about anyone else because the 2nd thing on your list is to get thorugh the system, and thats really all it is. Here i am sitting taking ONE class because I was too stuck up to get my own hookup. Wasting another year of my life. :\

[Drunken Monkey]

1) Your teacher's a fool for making folks memorize the formulas. The whole reason mankind invented writing is so we didn't have to memorize everything. A real test shouldn't involve memorizing the formula, it should involve proving you know what the formula means

2) Your fellow students screwed you. You should screw them back.

[rgramjet]

make the beast with two backs the curve.....an 85 is still a B.  Get them back on the next one by knowing your shit inside and out and walk tall knowing you scored a straight 100. 

My humble $.02.

[fastwin]

1) Your teacher's a fool for making folks memorize the formulas. The whole reason mankind invented writing is so we didn't have to memorize everything. A real test shouldn't involve memorizing the formula, it should involve proving you know what the formula means

2) Your fellow students screwed you. You should screw them back.

Apparently you live in the same world I was raised in. I'd still bust their chops if the teacher is that clueless as to their test cheating hi-jinx and they actually give a shit. I'm all about a level playing field. If I have to step it up to another level to play with others then so be it. I can do that. But I will not stoop to cheating whether it's hidden notes or shit programed in to my calculator. If your teacher is fine with their actions and doesn't care what the students do then I'd kick the shit out of them in their nuts (if they have any ). Because hey, if you don't give a shit about your students cheating on your tests then you shouldn't hold it against me either for kicking you in the nads and me honestly studying my ass off for your test and not cheating!

I just wouldn't take a class from some loser that would let their students cheat. But then again you may have not had a choice. I loved and respected my ex-mother in law. She was a professor emeritus at the University of Texas at Arlington, TX. She would have been all over this thread. She was a great teacher and lady and all of her students became personal friends. Some going back 20+ years. Her standards would have never permitted cheating in her post grad classes and she would expect her students to rat out the cheaters. End of story for me. When she said it was Christmas hang up your stockings!

[wbeck257]

just work harder next time. you'll know when you get that peice of paper in a few years that you did it the right way.

[akmnstr]

I say turn them in.  They are hurting you, cheaters passing hurts their respective professions since they don't have the skills they should have acquired, and it lowers the overall quality of our graduates if students make it through by cheating. Think of it as your duty. 

A couple more comments.  As a biologist I had to memorize a  ton of crab to get BS degree.  I was very bad at it and it was a huge struggle.  Fortunately, in graduate school I was expected to think rather than memorize so I did much better and got more out of it.  I've been working in my field for decades now and I hardly remember any of that stuff I had to memorize.  If I need a scientific name (or something else I forgot) I look it up; however I still think and come up with ideas all the time.  Why you have to memorize formulas is beyond me.  It seems to me, to be an archaic way to teach. 

If your doing pre-med, why are you doing a physics class?  Would you be better off with bio and bio-chemistry, genetics, etc.? 

Best to Ya!   The world needs all the non-cheating doctors it can get  

[Vindingo]

If your doing pre-med, why are you doing a physics class?  Would you be better off with bio and bio-chemistry, genetics, etc.? 

two semesters of physics is a prerequisite at most schools, and it is a section on the MCATs.  neither bio-chem or genetics are required. 

[DoubleEagle]

Vin,

I think you should ask your Prof what he/she would think if they knew that some of their students programmed the Formulas into their Calcs. and took them to the exam ?


Then depending on what the Prof says go from there.

I would let the Prof know that I ( you ) feel it was cheating and the world doesn't need more cheaters !

That's why we are in the mess we are in now and for the past couple of years . ( Mortgage debacle, Wall Street / Hedge Fund misbehavior / Bernie Madoff Ponzi Scheme etc...........

Dolph       

[akmnstr]

two semesters of physics is a prerequisite at most schools, and it is a section on the MCATs.  neither bio-chem or genetics are required. 

Well, that makes perfect sense