The Official "Dogs of the DMF" Thread

[hbliam]

Just to clarify: Lucy (jack russell) is a female, the other two (chihuahuas) are males?

Also, I took your story to suggest that the acquisition of #3 has increased attacks on #2 (by #1), whereas before you got #3 the attacks were infrequent pecking order stuff.  Is this true?  And have the attacks gotten more violent or are they just pecking order growling/barking/snapping that comes and goes?

Yes on the genders.

The attacks are always about the same. Not just growling/barking its UFC takedown with what sounds like trying to bite but we have never found evidence of an injury.

[hbliam]

Sounds like dog #1 is seeing herself as the pack leader, instead of you and your wife.

When the attack happens, or really any aggressive behavior whatsoever (including protecting food), dog #1 needs to be put into a submissive position until they relax. Typically this involves rolling them over on their back/side and allowing the other dogs to walk over and sniff them. It teaches them that you're the pack leader for everyone, including them. Speaking of Caesar...this is a technique I picked up from his show.

Needless to say, it may not go over well at first, but repetition and consistency is key. My lab/pit mix likes to try to be dominant when other dogs visit our house. This is what I do with her, and it is effective in diffusing the situation. She's not a fan of it, but it works. I've also done it on walks when she acts aggressive towards other dogs being walked...even though they don't usually come over and sniff during it. Just the act of putting her in that position is effective.

Yeah, I've been doing that minus the sniffing. They are scared of here when she gets aggressive so they won't come near her for a while. Then 20 minutes later they are all sleeping together.

[Triple J]

Don't let the other pups interfere as you do not want to take away his position in the pack. 

Isn't that the whole point though? She thinks she is the pack leader, but she isn't, hbliam is. The dogs within the pack do not correct each other, only the leader does.

I wouldn't let them interfere, but I would let them walk close by and sniff if they wanted. I wouldn't force that either though.

[1.21GW]

...She thinks she is the pack leader, but she isn't, hbliam is. The dogs within the pack do not correct each other, only the leader does.

+1.

There are ways to reinforce that you are the leader beyond just that obvious ones the submissive position TripleJ mentioned.  For example: (Forgive me if you know all this, hbliam.  I assume you do, but thought it worth mentioning in the event you didn't.)

- every time you go in/out of the house, you go first not the dog.  This reinforces the rule that alpha leads.
- likewise with walks.  Dog shouldn't be pulling out ahead, effectively "in charge", but rather at your side.
- before you feed the dog its dinner, eat something (even a potato chip) in front of him/her while he/she waits.  This reinforces the rule that alpha eats first.
- things like not allowing the dog on the bed/couch helps.  This reinforces that alpha has its own space, in particular a space above the pack.
- training (whether simple obedience, or, assuming the dog has that, tricks and agility training) can be helpful, too.  It reinforces that you are in charge and the dog has to obey you.  Even five minutes/day of "roll over" or "stay" or "fetch" in a structured way can reinforce the handler's alpha role.
- don't pet the dog on its terms, but on yours.  Often a dog will come over and nudge you for attention, which effectively is he/she ordering you to pet it.  Ideally, the handler should be initiating the activity.  And similarly, the handler should be stopping before the dog gets tired/bored, so again the initiation and termination is all the handler's choice, not the dog's.

There are plenty more.  Of course, some of these maybe are extreme (what heartless person can resist petting a dog that comes over and nudges for attention??), so take it with a grain of salt.  That said, these small things consistently applied can effectively convey to the dog that the handler is the alpha.  I've lived with roommates and a girlfriend at various times when I've had dogs, and I tried to get them to stick to the same dog habits as I in order to reinforce the idea.  Not easy to do even when everyone is on board, but if you are doing the right things while your wife/son/father-in-law isn't, it's near impossible to curb bad dog behavior.

If TripleJ is right and Lucy thinks she is alpha, it will take some time to re-train that thinking.  Constant little reminders such as those above, will help.

Anyway, that's my take based on my experience with a wanna-be alpha male years ago.  Took some re-training of my own behavior (like the things listed above) to get him from wanting to run the show.

(Again, forgive me if you know all this already.)

[Triple J]

^^^

Good stuff.  I do all of that as well when establishing dominance, but then I usually relax on some of it.

Another good one is never walk around or over the dog...if they're in your way at all, make them get up and move. I don't do this anymore, but I did initially.

[Skybarney]

Isn't that the whole point though? She thinks she is the pack leader, but she isn't, hbliam is. The dogs within the pack do not correct each other, only the leader does.

I wouldn't let them interfere, but I would let them walk close by and sniff if they wanted. I wouldn't force that either though.

Since she is the first she should be/is the leader of the new pups.  However, she also has to know that you as pack leader won't tolerate the behavior she exhibits over food.  Correct the behavior and let each sort out where they stand in the pack below you and the other humans in their lives. Just let her know her methods do not work for you and she will find a quieter way to establish her dominance.

There will always be an order amongst the pups. Sometimes they will go at it a bit hard (lots of noise, scary as hell sounding and looks vicious) in an attempt to climb higher in the pack.  Seldom do they actually injure each other. ( :

Kopf: just stop reading here if you still reading at all.

My wolf pup had an issue with a dog that snapped at his face in the dog park.  The dog barked a lot prior to the issue at everyone at every other dog and did so every time we were there. I think my my pup walked by just to make a point of being able to (he is large) and when he did, the other dog took his shot.  My pup grabbed him by the head and made a hell of a lot of noise doing so.  I yanked him off and put him on his back to get control quickly.  The other dog had a single hole, not to deep in the top of his head.  The other owner knew it was the dogs own fault so we left it at that.

Next couple of weeks at the dog park the other dog sat by his owner like usual, but quietly.  Neither him or my pup had an issue.  Well about three weeks go by and the dog was at it again.  Barking at everyone and everything that got within five feet.  My pup calmly walked up to the dog, the dog raised his lip to him and my pup turned around and without a second thought raised his leg and pissed right on the dogs head.  Not a little, a lot.  The other dog just sat there and took it.

Point of the story:  My dog learned I did not like his reaction to the confrontation so he found another way to show his dominance.  Much safer, less likely to involve an attorney and funny as hell btw.

Hope it helps ( :

[Rudemouthsky]

There's consensus, for the most part among contemporary trainers that Cesar ' s techniques are borderline if not flat out abusive, as well as ineffective. Reward based training FTW.

[Triple J]

There's consensus, for the most part among contemporary trainers that Cesar ' s techniques are borderline if not flat out abusive, as well as ineffective. Reward based training FTW.

Reward based training like many teach (i.e., treat based training) has its share of problems as well, and I have a seriously hard time seeing the general training techniques like Cesar uses as being abusive. FWIW, Cesar didn't invent the techniques, he just got famous using them. IMO, the reason why some trainers are critical of him is mainly because they're jealous of his success. Also, Cesar's techniques can appear a little harsh at times, but it has to be recognized that he's often dealing with dogs that are really out of control...it makes for better TV.

Cesar just uses a variation of what I'd call respect based training. There is an aspect of reward based training in it, as praising is indeed a reward...but it isn't treat based. Whether you like Cesar or not, or whether you like all of his techniques or not, respect based training is extremely effective and it is definitely not abusive.

The system I prefer: http://www.tenderfoottraining.com/index.html

[Ducatamount]

I have a good dog too. He is well trained, good natured and respectful. He was easy to train because he wants to please.
I think there is such a thing as over-trained which alters a dog's personality and takes away some of their good humor and impulsiveness but some people want that like law officers and the military.
I don't think there is just one proper training technique. First off every dog is different. Is it a working dog or a companion? Is it a town dog or a country dog? Any children?
Some dogs have special needs or neurosis and require extra attention. I have never hit, pinched, rolled him over or anything like that, when you feed your dog he knows who the Alpha is.
Your tone of voice is extremely important. As a dog gets older he will have his own "vocabulary". He will understand certain words and you can even string together, up to 3 of his "vocabulary"words into a sentence. He will also express himself and communicate through sounds, body language, eyes&eyebrows, tail, and movement.
Like any living thing, you have to give to get. You want love and respect from your dog? Well then...
Also they need exercise and good food too! 
 

[Grampa]

I have 6 dogs, none of which are named Alpha.

[Triple J]

I completely agree with Ducatamount.   All dogs are definitely different, so training methods need to be adapted. Level of desired training needs to be decided as well (I basically just want mine to listen...nothing fancy). My Dane will do whatever asked if I just look at her funny, and has always been that way...my Lab/Pit on the other hand is a little more independent.   We initially tried treat training with her and it was useless...if she couldn't smell that you had a treat then forget it! They're both great dogs though, and extremely friendly and well behaved.

I also would never advocate hitting an animal. I don't even use any sort of training collars...just a plain old flat collar.

[thorn14]

So this is a sad post.

My fiance and I just put our oldest down. I first met Ginger almost 7 years ago when she was already 10, so she wasn't technically my dog, but as I got into the relationship she definitely enjoyed snuggles and walks with me.

She was in a way the first dog that I could call "my own". Stubborn as hell, with plenty of attitude, and a tongue that could get in your throat with no effort. She tried commiting suicide multiple times, which caused a ban of any toy that wasn't hard rubber, as well as no clothes anywhere near her. She lost the privilege to chew on any rawhide after she began attempting to swallow it whole. But she loved to visit in the middle of the night and kiss your hand and play.

Unfortunately, these past few months she's had more difficulty walking, sleeping, and was losing control of her body, so we had to make the tough decision.


I don't have too many pictures of her, more of the younger boy. But these are pretty much the essence of her existence, wide awake and passed out.





On the topic of training...

Our youngest Edgar has been difficult to train because of his lack of food motivation, and inability to make a lot of connections to rewards (likely based off mom/dad not reinforcing anything). It was a really slow process, but he never had any issues with being alpha, only learning.

[Triple J]

Sorry to hear about Ginger...she was a good looking dog. 

[Grampa]

I do believe that people who figure out life's shit, come back as dogs who get to live with good people when they die. People who have not figued it out, come back as cats.

RIP Ginger 

[triangleforge]

Ginger sounds like a wonderful companion. Sorry for your loss, Thorn.