Counter Steering

[ODrides]

Chicken Strips:
...This is the additional lean angle that the bike is capable of using to leaning into the turn (under appropriate conditions).

Not necessarily true.  Hard parts of your motorcycle may start scraping before the edge of the tire touches the road.  My Monster scrapes the kickstand on the left and the exhaust can on the right.  Pushing further could cause a lowside crash, so keep in mind that the tire's profile does not exclusively indicate your potential lean angle.

[Ducatista]

Not necessarily true.  Hard parts of your motorcycle may start scraping before the edge of the tire touches the road.  My Monster scrapes the kickstand on the left and the exhaust can on the right.  Pushing further could cause a lowside crash, so keep in mind that the tire's profile does not exclusively indicate your potential lean angle.

+1

It completely depends on your tire profile and what hangs lowest on your bike. 

[hypurone]

One thing that seems to have been overlooked and often is, is to "weight" the inside peg. This settles a bike better than anthing else and actually halves the amount of countersteering input needed. It helps you as a rider maintain a "neutral" relation to the bars, allowing you to make mid-corner changes easier and not upset things from bumps etc. Even in not-so-hyper riding, and as the pace picks up it magnifies. This also helps to reduce hand & arm fatigue from countersteering input. This is more evident during a track day.

Unless maybe you're riding the "Dragon" or similar road....   

[MotoPsycho]

+1

I figured that out too while hanging off. But it was late in the day before I learned that. My shoulders were tired by lunchtime, I wish I'd have figured that out earlier in the day.

On my monster the mufflers drag before anything else and I still got chicken strips.

[Cider]

Obviously counter-steering works, but I don't see how the "no BS" bike proves the concept.  Unless I'm missing something, the only thing that bike proves is that you can't steer a bike that doesn't allow the user to turn the front end.  But that's not even true: lots of riders can steer a bike without putting their hands on the grips.  For an extreme example, check out a video of Christian Pfeiffer doing tight circles and figure-eights with his hands off the bars.

Interestingly enough, when I went to Spencer's school, he didn't even mention counter-steering until somebody asked a question about it.  He said it works, but he prefers to concentrate on body position, weighting the inside peg, and using knee pressure on the side of the tank.  However, Spencer explains corners much differently than Code.  In any case, I tried his suggestion, and I think it improved my riding.

Modified to add: check out this video around 1:58; Pfeiffer can turn without using the handlebars. 

[Cider]

OK, I'm naughty, I shouldn't reply to my old post, but there was an interesting discussion about this a few years ago on the other board.  In particular, check out the videos that Scott Nelson made (if they still exist): http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/riding-techniques/102168-riding-technique.html

[Statler]

Code just discussed this recently when asked.  He said something to the effect of countersteering being the fastest way to change direction.  Not that body postion and weighting pegs doesn't effect the bike.  And those things become more important as you're making adjustents.  We're talking basics here.

But when the bus pulls out in front of you on the street, please don't think you will change the direction of your bike quickly enough by weighting a peg.  Crank those bars.

countersteering and correct peg weight and correct body position works fine.

countersteering itself with you smack dab in the middle of the seat works fine (goldwing anyone?).

hands off the bars or no input to bars, and no amount of monkeying off or standing on one peg will make you miss that bus.  splat.

[Cider]

OK, that makes sense.  I must have misunderstood the no-BS bike.  I thought the implicit argument was: you can't turn a bike with fixed handlebars, therefore countersteering is how a bike turns (bad premise, bad conclusion).

As for Spencer's advice, he didn't suggest that we shouldn't counter-steer.  He just suggested concentrating on things other than pushing on the inside grip (or pulling on the outside grip).  Your bus example is probably outside the scope of what he was teaching, but in that situation MSF asks students to let the bike move underneath them when swerving; in other words, they don't want you to try to lean when you swerve (I'm not an MSF instructor, but this is what they've told me).

[Statler]

If swerving around a pothole I might agree as it's just a few feet in each direction....the bike does a little jink underneath you quickly.     If swerving as far as the next lane I'd lean like mad with the bike.  Sometimes an escape route on the street is no different than a quick high speed turn.  I wouldn't sit up while the bike leans for that in any scenario.

[Cider]

MSF has an obstacle that is roughly equivalent to a lane-change that requires a quick left-right (or right-left) and simulates swerving to avoid a hazard.  For that exercise, they don't teach leaning (at least not in this area).  I'm not sure what I'd do in a panic situation, but it would be very hard not to lean.

[2 Wheel Wanderer]

Heres a great vid...

[Carman]

I didn't think it was possbile not to use countersteer at decent speeds?

[woodyracing]

i read an article about a guy who ran a track, and when people would tell him that countersteering was bogus, and that turning was all about leaning, he would stick them on this bike he had rigged up with the front end welded in place. it takes only one turn without being able to countersteer (consciously or not) to realize that it is indeed real.

yeah yeah, good 'ole Keith Code...  One clarification though, when Code came up with the No BS bike, it was essentially a response to the other schools that focused a good bit on body positioning, footpeg weighting, etc and Code thought he would throw them all a big FU by making a bike that you couldn't steer much with just body positioning.  Classic Code attitude, "I'm right and everybody else is stupid"

[Statler]

  Classic Code attitude, "I'm right and everybody else is stupid"

Have you spoken to him in person?   Rather humble and pleasant about other schools of thought.   Have you read some of his recent stuff?   He says he teaches what he has found to work and that while he enjoys projects like the no BS bike, he says they are no means scientific experiments but help him to understand whats going on.


I'm not saying he is the be all and end all of riding techniques.  Far from it.

We've had some great posts here and on the other board about riders who have improved their times quite a bit with teaching from other schools (and schools of thought).

But after talking to him in person and having him say things like "why don't you do a few laps and try it out and then we'll talk about what you think"  I find statements like the one above a little dramatic and misleading.

(disclaimer:  woodyracing is obviously a very competent track rider...I am not......we're not talking merrits of riding schools here)

[Cider]

I just got back from another Spencer school, so I was able to clarify and reinforce some of the things I learned last summer.  In any case, they acknowledge that counter-steering is how a bike gets around, but they feel riders are better served by concentrating on things other than pushing or pulling on the grips.  Consequently, they strongly emphasize body positioning.

I've never been to a Code school (I paid for one a few years ago, but they called me back and cancelled the session for lack of interest), but from what I understand, there are several differences between his style and Spencer's (e.g. trail-braking, flicking a bike into the corner).  However, the mechanics of counter-steering doesn't seem to be one of them.