5.56 vs. 7.62

[ducatiz]

Shot placement.

Hit a guy in the eyeball with .22 short and lets see what he does.

Most of our guys, God bless them, are not riflemen anymore, they are just shooters.  40 years ago, most conscripts had experience with firearms, but nowadays the military volunteers have very little.  Often, when they are issued a training M16 is it the first gun they've ever handled.

You simply cannot teach proper shooting to a person in the span of boot camp, along with everything else.  If they all came into the military knowing how to handle a rifle, you'd probably have enough time to teach good shooting technique.  The best we can do is teach safety, maintenance and some basic shooting, and show them the nifty burst setting so they can have 3 chances to hit something.

Bear in mind that 7.62 (and especially ought six) was issued at a time when most of our service was coming into the military with some experience.  Even the boys from New York City had rifle teams in Manhattan (yes!).  That's all gone now, as is the useful knowledge with it.

6.8 is a fine round, as is 7.62 as is 5.56.  But at the end of the argument, if you can hit them in the eye, they don't stand up and yell "HAHA THAT WAS ONLY 5.56 YOU PUSSY!"

When we switched from the M14 to the M16, it wasn't just an ammo switch, it was a tactics change -- we didn't have a military of riflemen who could shoot well, so we fielded large numbers of guys with "Spray and pray" capabilities.

Yes, 5.56 produces a smaller wound channel than 7.62, which is evident when you are a bad shot and can only hit CBM.  Unfortunatley, merely going back to 7.62 won't fix this problem since ammo capacities are smaller on the M14 (or FAL or G3) magazines and ruck loads will just be heavier.

Teach our boys to shoot like Hathcock and you'll see less complaints about whatever round we are using.

[Mother]

that suprised me, I am one of the least gun oriented people in my group of family and friends. I got my first rifle when I was 12. I am a fair shot but they are outstanding riflemen and hunters. I can't imagine boot being the first experience with a rifle

[Kopfjäger]

Shot placement.

Hit a guy in the eyeball with .22 short and lets see what he does.

Most of our guys, God bless them, are not riflemen anymore, they are just shooters.  40 years ago, most conscripts had experience with firearms, but nowadays the military volunteers have very little.  Often, when they are issued a training M16 is it the first gun they've ever handled.

You simply cannot teach proper shooting to a person in the span of boot camp, along with everything else.  If they all came into the military knowing how to handle a rifle, you'd probably have enough time to teach good shooting technique.  The best we can do is teach safety, maintenance and some basic shooting, and show them the nifty burst setting so they can have 3 chances to hit something.

Bear in mind that 7.62 (and especially ought six) was issued at a time when most of our service was coming into the military with some experience.  Even the boys from New York City had rifle teams in Manhattan (yes!).  That's all gone now, as is the useful knowledge with it.

6.8 is a fine round, as is 7.62 as is 5.56.  But at the end of the argument, if you can hit them in the eye, they don't stand up and yell "HAHA THAT WAS ONLY 5.56 YOU PUSSY!"

When we switched from the M14 to the M16, it wasn't just an ammo switch, it was a tactics change -- we didn't have a military of riflemen who could shoot well, so we fielded large numbers of guys with "Spray and pray" capabilities.

Yes, 5.56 produces a smaller wound channel than 7.62, which is evident when you are a bad shot and can only hit CBM.  Unfortunatley, merely going back to 7.62 won't fix this problem since ammo capacities are smaller on the M14 (or FAL or G3) magazines and ruck loads will just be heavier.

Teach our boys to shoot like Hathcock and you'll see less complaints about whatever round we are using.

Ummm, we don't teach headshots on the SOF side of the house. I know this because it is one of my jobs.

[ducatiz]

that suprised me, I am one of the least gun oriented people in my group of family and friends. I got my first rifle when I was 12. I am a fair shot but they are outstanding riflemen and hunters. I can't imagine boot being the first experience with a riflec

I didn't mean every single kid in boot had never touched a rifle, rather a much much higher proportion than in times past.  The NY Times had a story about military training a few years ago and in one paragraph interview with an older drill sergeant he refers to this -- that all forces have seen a decline in the number of firearm-experienced recruits and have had to change their training (in the last 30-40 years) as a result. 

Ummm, we don't teach headshots on the SOF side of the house. I know this because it is one of my jobs.

I never claimed we did...

Just for the record, I did not say that EVERY serviceman today is a shitty shooter.  We have plenty of skilled marksmen and DMs.  However, among the NON-DMs, the average shooting ability is much lower than it was in the last generation.   This is due to changes in the population (Fewer hunters, more urbanization, anti-gun politics and policies).

My high school had a shooting range in the basement.  We used to come to school with our .22 rifles in the car, put them in a locker at the beginning of the day, and after school we would have rifle team practice.

Not any more.  The rifle range is now storage.

Justice Antinon Scalia talked about taking his rifle on the subway to school for shooting practice -- going into Manhattan.  50 years ago, kids in NYC could use a shooting range at their school, but now they'd spend 2-5 years in the pen for doing that.

[ducpainter]

Lots of things are different than they were 50 years ago.

Some for the better and some not.

[Popeye the Sailor]

I can shoot the fleas off a dogs back at 500 yards.

[ducatiz]

Lots of things are different than they were 50 years ago.

Some for the better and some not.

Sure, but we are talking about 5.56 vs 7.62 here, and I suggested some reasons for the migration.

[ducpainter]

Sure, but we are talking about 5.56 vs 7.62 here, and I suggested some reasons for the migration.

...and I even agree with some of the things you suggested.

I was just commenting.

Hard to respond in many other ways without getting political.

Don't be so defensive.

[rgramjet]

A good offense is the best defense.

[ducpainter]

Is being offensive a good defense?   

[rgramjet]

Always!   

[ducpainter]

I would disagree, but c'est la vie.

[ducatiz]

I would disagree, but c'est la vie.

being disagreeable is very offensive!

...and I even agree with some of the things you suggested.

I was just commenting.

Hard to respond in many other ways without getting political.

Don't be so defensive.

but there really wasn't any politics in my comments.  i merely observed that the number of men in the US who have shooting experience prior to going into the military has decreased and posited that a factor in the change of rifle tactics is partly due to that.

[Kopfjäger]

i merely observed that the number of men in the US who have shooting experience prior to going into the military has decreased and posited that a factor in the change of rifle tactics is partly due to that.

So you are saying the reason the US Military went from the 7.62 to the 5.56 was due to less shooting experience by recruits?

[He Man]

How can this get political? Its just ammo!

There was a story...not sure if it was true or not. but there was a investigation on Marines commiting executions because of the number of head shots found. The truth was, the terrorist were only exposing their heads and the Marines had nothing else to shoot at.

I like the idea of the story, no idea if its true or not. but you can defintely learn how to shoot in the 13 weeks of bootcamp without ever touching a gun. Your a good blank canvas to teach and have no bad habbits. Frequent qualifications with guns and rifle training is what keeps you sharp and betters your shooting skills. Besides, any infantry unit will be taught how to shoot properly and the US invests A LOT of money into the training of its Soldiers. Its the non infantry jobs that doesnt get to sharpen their rifle skills often.