Rossi v Stoner and years past....

[Jester]

Just feel like talking about racing and my general brain waves.

You know, I've been giving thought about the current landscape in MotoGP.  I was talking to the girlfriend last night about the level of competition and how Stoner and Rossi tend to clear off into the sunset these days and the apparent lack of talent on the rest of the grid from a racing/fighting stand point and it got me to thinking about the post 500cc days of MotoGP.

I started thinking about how good the racing was during the 990cc era compared to the 800's.  ( keep in mind this is post 500cc )  The Honda had a lot to do with it, being that a lot of talented riders were on the Honda, but in reality maybe the racing really wasn't all it was cracked up to be.  Rossi and Burgess both claim that they managed race wins during those days and at any given time, Rossi could make the move at the front and pull out victory, which is what we commonly witnessed.  So my theory is that really, it was no different than what we're seeing now, except it would have been a one man clear off into the distance instead of two if Rossi so had wished it.

Then came the move to Yamaha for Rossi, which was a new challenge on a bike that wasn't quite up to snuff with the Honda, but close enough.  Rossi imo then began to push harder and rode closer to his limits as a racer, but still managed victory.  So I really consider his time on the 990 Yamaha as the better racing because in most circumstances, he truly had to push that machine to be competitive, but the racing was still pretty close.

Which brings us to now.  I've never been a Stoner fan, but mostly due to his morbid demeanor, even in the face of race victory.  His bike never seems to work well... and there is always a problem!  It drives me up the wall that this kid just can't lighten up, so I refuse to become a fan.  However, I think Stoner is the first man to really be a true threat to Rossi's crown as best current rider ( not all time ).  Stoner still lacks the racecraft in my opinion whenever it does come down to head-to-head, but his ability to ride the wheels off the Ducati makes up for that.

Everyone seems to put Lorenzo/Pedro.. eh and /shrug I guess no one else into the discussion of great current riders, but over the past few years, there really is no argument.  GP is just a two horse race no matter any way you spin it.  I think its exciting, because Rossi is clearly pushing and riding his ass off 100% for possibly the first time in is career... every race ( even more than the Yamaha 990 years ).  Maybe the racing isn't good every week, but I like the challenge between these two.  The M1 is clearly a great motorcycle in all facets due to multiple people having success on the bike, but unlike the Honda days, Rossi doesn't have time to manage races anymore, so you can now see the talent differential to a much larger extent.  No one was pulling off like Stoner back in the 990 days so Rossi didn't have to race on the ragged edge like he does now.

I'm going to have to admit that Stoner is a hell of a talent, even though I can't stand the guy.  The Ducati is also a fantastic bike... but for whatever reason just built for one man.  I wanted to throw that out there, because I've been against calling the Ducati a great bike due to the fact everyone else bring up the rear on the thing... but I'm switching stance because of the man at the front.  Who cares if no one else can ride it.  Stoner is giving Rossi everything he has, and for that I think in some respects this is the best that GP has seen.  Not for the racing spectacle, but for what we're witnessing from the two men heads and above everyone else on the grid.

[gm2]

I've never been a Stoner fan, but mostly due to his morbid demeanor, even in the face of race victory.  His bike never seems to work well... and there is always a problem!  It drives me up the wall that this kid just can't lighten up, so I refuse to become a fan. 

what in the sam hizzle are you on about?  he had a couple media moments last year, but overall he's nothing but complimentary about the bike and the team.

Stoner still lacks the racecraft in my opinion whenever it does come down to head-to-head,

yep, big time.  but the 800 era hasn't required much, unfortunately.

but his ability to ride the wheels off the Ducati makes up for that.

yep, sometimes.  often.

in truth i'm a fan of them both.  i was a really big stoner supporter in '06.  he's not the racer that valentino is (who is?) but he's batshit fast and consistent.

i think the real problem with the 'racing' is the switch to 800s, not anyone on the grid.  and the new cost-cutting moves are only going to make it worse.

[mitt]

A year or 2 ago Kevin Cameron did his editorial about competitive GP racing and close finishes.  According to his expertise, the modern 990cc & 800cc racing is much closer and competitive than the "golden years", but yet fans still complain.  It is like a drug, a couple close years, then we expect the championship to always come down to the last race with a photo finish.

mitt

[gm2]

nah.  really the problem, so to speak, is WSBK.

[The Don]

Which brings us to now.  I've never been a Stoner fan, but mostly due to his morbid demeanor, even in the face of race victory.  His bike never seems to work well... and there is always a problem!  It drives me up the wall that this kid just can't lighten up, so I refuse to become a fan.  However, I think Stoner is the first man to really be a true threat to Rossi's crown as best current rider ( not all time ).  Stoner still lacks the racecraft in my opinion whenever it does come down to head-to-head, but his ability to ride the wheels off the Ducati makes up for that.

I must say up front that I'm a Australian and a little defencive with Australian riders. I not sure about this "morbid demeanor" you talk about, when ever I have seen him he is always smiling into the camera, except at Laguna. The overseas press and  public had the same problem with Mick Doohan, though I never  saw the problem. Mick and Casey are both no nonsense racers, not there to pump up their ego's just race. I know that Casey is not the polished sportsman that the American and European press and public want but he is what he is.

His bike hasn't worked well in the past, even Caparosi who was on the bike from the get go, and with all his experience could not get the Ducati to work. What about the other riders who have ridden and complained about the duke? Even Hayden (who I am a big fan of) with his dirt bike background is having problems. I think to say the bike is made for Stoner is short sighted, how about Casey has best adapted to the bike he has been given? 
 

I'm going to have to admit that Stoner is a hell of a talent, even though I can't stand the guy.  The Ducati is also a fantastic bike... but for whatever reason just built for one man.  I wanted to throw that out there, because I've been against calling the Ducati a great bike due to the fact everyone else bring up the rear on the thing... but I'm switching stance because of the man at the front.  Who cares if no one else can ride it.  Stoner is giving Rossi everything he has, and for that I think in some respects this is the best that GP has seen.  Not for the racing spectacle, but for what we're witnessing from the two men heads and above everyone else on the grid.

[Jester]

what in the sam hizzle are you on about?  he had a couple media moments last year, but overall he's nothing but complimentary about the bike and the team.

Maybe its my focus on the negative with Stoner due to me never really being a big fan... it just always seems to me that no matter how big a win he has... many times he speaks of problems.  I'll chalk that up to selective hearing on my part, so I'll let you have that one! 

i think the real problem with the 'racing' is the switch to 800s, not anyone on the grid.  and the new cost-cutting moves are only going to make it worse.

Definately.  The racing is best when a series sticks to the same design for a long period.  This allows even the non competitive teams to eventually catch up and provide quality machinery throughout.  While there are always advances, the longer a certain design sticks around, the more even the playing field.  The new cost cutting measures will definately shake things up again next year and set back the competitiveness of the series another few years.

[BastrdHK]

Stoner is INSANELY fast!.....and, as stated, becoming very consistent.  However, I wouldn't put too much stock in the first round.  There are circuits that suit other bikes(Honda) and riders a lot better.  Stoner just owns Losail.

I did not like Rossi when I started following GP in '07, but his intelligence during the race, and fun loving demeanor have won me over.  He is the most complete rider you may ever see.  His input is directly responsible for the potentially dominating '09 R1 in WSBK.

I refuse to count Nicky out yet.  He rode impressively in Qatar while injured.  I think he will get faster as he gets more time on the bike after 3-4 rounds.  I just hope he can avoid the big, confidence shaking get offs while he is learning like Lorenzo experienced last year 

[Dannyboy]

I have to admit, I am a big fan of Casey Stoner.  He impressed me in his rookie season with a crap bike and then moving to Ducati cemented it.  While I think Rossi is far and away the most complete rider, I did lose some respect for him when he whined about his tires and switched to Bridgestone.  That whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth.  Granted, I am not a fan of Michelin after the US GP in 05 but to continually call out a company that has gone out of their way to support you is bad form.  Sure, it could have been the tires since he won last year but maybe, just maybe, Stoner was the better rider with the better bike that year.  Unfortunately, I think Rossi is so full of himself that that thought never crossed his mind.

[gm2]

While I think Rossi is far and away the most complete rider, I did lose some respect for him when he whined about his tires and switched to Bridgestone.

you've gotta be kidding.

michelin royally make the beast with two backsed up in '07.  numerous times.  they, and every rider in the series still on michelins at the time, NEEDED vale to be that vocal about it. 

[zooom]

you've gotta be kidding.

michelin royally make the beast with two backsed up in '07.  numerous times.  they, and every rider in the series still on michelins at the time, NEEDED vale to be that vocal about it. 

actually...they ALL needed to be vocal about it, but Val getting his and then Dani making the moves that he did in the way that he did...the only thing in question with other Michelin riders left at the time, I am betting, was the amount of sponsorship money involved and the contracts surrounding them....Michelin dropped the ball when they went away from their ability to formulate a midnite special tire the evening before raceday...and left the riders holding the bag with inferior equipment...it would infuriate any rider having to deal with that IMHO.

[supakpow2]

I've been a big fan of Rossi for a long time. I really didn't like Stoner until after Laguna last year. Well, I hated him after laguna because he whined like a girl. But, suddenly he shut the faucet off and just took it like a man and learned from it. Maybe his pr people told him to shut up or whatever, but he did. Then he just raced and didn't cry at all. That shows maturity and the ability to move past a situation and improve because of it. He hasn't said one bad thing about Vale since. I think he is starting to feel more at ease in the top spot and receiving less criticism about his riding vs equipment argument. He isn't so sensitive. Which has made him more easy going before and after races.  big difference in my opinion from a year or more ago. How would the average early twenty year old act in the same circumstances? Probably not as well.
    I'm a real Stoner fan now. Still like Rossi the best but Casey is exciting to watch. It's like watching an F-16 flying at 2 feet off the ground.    Rossi is fun to watch when he is chasing Stoner but he is so smooth that you get the feeling he is going 60 mph all the time. I think Casey has the potential to win the championship at least a few more times if he continues to improve his racecraft not just his go fast skills. It's easier to run a race or qualifying line than a defensive one when your 2-3 second up on the #2 position. Very difficult having to catch and overtake Rossi when he is in front of you.
I think he can do it. I'm stickin around to see.
Either him or Rossi as champion this year would make me happy. Coin toss for me.

[gm2]

....it's still very early in the season.... 

[supakpow2]

....it's still very early in the season.... 

point well taken.......

that has been proven time and again.

[derby]

I have to admit, I am a big fan of Casey Stoner.  He impressed me in his rookie season with a crap bike and then moving to Ducati cemented it. 

the same crap bike that rossi and hayden won championships on? ok....

While I think Rossi is far and away the most complete rider, I did lose some respect for him when he whined about his tires and switched to Bridgestone.  That whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth.  Granted, I am not a fan of Michelin after the US GP in 05 but to continually call out a company that has gone out of their way to support you is bad form.  Sure, it could have been the tires since he won last year but maybe, just maybe, Stoner was the better rider with the better bike that year.  Unfortunately, I think Rossi is so full of himself that that thought never crossed his mind.

forget rossi for a second. how was colin feeling about the french rubber?

 i'd prefer a championship with competition between multiple tire manufacturers, but michelin could no longer produce a product that could actually compete. quite simply, michelin lost their mojo (not just in motogp)...

[ZLTFUL]

the same crap bike that rossi and hayden won championships on? ok....

Not going to Derby Derby but Derby has a very good point. Hehe.