First Track Day on the 696

[Speeddog]

Check out this thread with videos:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=14555.0

[NekkedChic]

Great vids, watched them few months ago, time for refresher    TKS!   


Zooom    seriously, eh?    I keep threatening to buy a fiddy    Shoulda taken the TTR out there maybe too?    

[stopintime]

Stop, Thanks.
......................

I REALLY want input about how our body weight helps when off the bike-and then serious consideration put to fact that I am too damn little?  Sure it is not impossible, KIDS do this-but sure they are required more muscle or ? to make up for weight difference??!   
..........................

NEEED to do this right!! 

Glad that you weren't offended and glad that you, like I, need to get it right. Learning is good

At a certain/any speed it's required to have corresponding weight inside the tire contact patches to counteract the centrifugal forces.
If it's only the bike doing this - it needs to be in a given leaned angle. That angle will be the same if the rider is sitting still.
It will be more/too aggressive if the rider's body is resisting and/or twisted the wrong way.
It will will be less aggressive if the rider's upper body is hanging off INWARDS. The result is a smoother turn
with a little margin OR the possibility to go faster (because the bike with the help of the "hanging off" will have more lean angle available before it looses traction)

I'm not at all sure I explain this very well, but I try.....

Your lack of weight to influence the bike isn't stopping you from helping it do it's thing. Just need to be more assertive and hopefully get it right at the turn entrance - which is always a good thing anyway. Us bigger guys have an easier job correcting mid-turn what we did wrong on entrance, even if it sometimes looks and becomes messy.

A very big +1 on Speeddog's link. It shows the technique very well.

[NekkedChic]

OK so maybe I need an explanation on basic physics here?   
In order to get a bike around a corner, it must lean, correct?    But, if I am allowing LESS lean angle by getting/hanging off bike, just what is it now that is getting the bike around that corner/turning???   

I am in need of LESS lean angle in order to continue at speeds I am comfortable/capable and used to going in order to avoid scraping that damned sidestand foot thingy.   Sooo.....I now must get further off the bike so the bike does NOT lean as far over, but my brain is NOT comprehending what, other than my weight (which you say is not a factor here), is then getting that bike around that corner/turn?   
sorry guyz, but this is consuming me AND specifically what is holding me back here a great deal now-on the track AND now I have concerns on the street of course.   uggggg   
THANK YOU again 

[stopintime]

In order to get a bike around a corner, it must lean, correct?    

Yes.

    But, if I am allowing LESS lean angle by getting/hanging off bike, just what is it now that is getting the bike around that corner/turning???  

The combination of the bike's and your weight - in their respective positions.

   Sooo.....I now must get further off the bike so the bike does NOT lean as far over, but my brain is NOT comprehending what, other than my weight (which you say is not a factor here), is then getting that bike around that corner/turn?  

It IS your weight, if it's on the inside, that is HELPING the bike do it's thing without leaning over as much as it would have to otherwise. Less weight only means a smaller ability to help the bike - you as the rider still influence the bike a lot.

Are we getting closer?

[NekkedChic]

Yes.

The combination of the bike's and your weight - in their respective positions.

It IS your weight, if it's on the inside, that is HELPING the bike do it's thing without leaning over as much as it would have to otherwise. Less weight only means a smaller ability to help the bike - you as the rider still influence the bike a lot.

Are we getting closer?

You are so very kind and PATIENT     Getting there and after a lot of thought, reading, watching vids and talking, actually understanding better.  I got it, just could not put it into words or THEORY, if that makes sense??? 
Now, to get out and "play" on the local "private track" this weekend   

Also occurred to me-where I thought it would be good idea to remove sidestand on Monster for next track event, decided NOT a good idea becuz it is, in fact, going to keep me outta trouble since I will feel it before I reach "maximum lean angle"  that'll prolly send me into low side.  THANK YOU AGAIN!!

[zooom]

let me add in some wording that might clear this up a bit I think as I understand and have learned it. Sport Riding Technique's actually has a great bit in there about this that I used when learning and figuring this all out on my 1st street bike which I named the Pizza Cutter (it was an '82 Kawasaki GPz550 with F&R tires that were thinner than the front tires on any modern bike<F was a 100/90/19 and R was a 110/90/18> )..the point of getting off the bike and to the inside is to change the center of gravity...when you change the Center Of Gravity towards the inside if the bike, it allows you to keep the bike more upright on the contact patch of your tires(which also keep hard parts clear of scraping and dragging).

Lets regress here a moment, unless you are running race tires or specially profiled tires that are of a more V shape, then you have a standard U shape to your tire. Those tires generally have the most contact with the pavement the more upright you are, so the point of changing your body position on the bike is to act as a moveable ballast and change the COG. With the COG to the inboard side of the bike, it allows you to stay on more of the contact patch and therefore have a need for less lean angle and keep more traction. This was a crucial learning curve for me with the Pizza Cutter when I was riding this bike wih bikes that were 15+ years newer than mine while on the street and I had to learn how to get the most out of what I had to keep up with those I was riding with. The leaning of the bike isn't actually turning it, the counter steering is by result of the whole process. The body position and lean angle just aids in how much or little input you need to feed into the bars. It also by result sets the weighting in the chassis which aids in how it reacts and/or upsets the chassis when you add throttle inputs. The way you position yourself to achieve this is different from bike to bike and person to person. The overall concept is the same across the board, but ergonomics dictate the exact way.

I used to catch grief when I 1st went to the track because I did it on my '01 street Monster at the track like I did it on my GPz on the street and it looked wacked out, but it was comfortable for me at the time. I had to figure out what was the best way to do it for myself on that bike and then re-figure it out on my track bike. I ended up changing parts on the track bike to best achieve the end result, which I couldn't do on the GPz and didn't do on the '01. The way I did it (as I'll explain for a right hand turn for visual) was that pretty much my left foot was on the peg with my heel against the frame with my toe pointing outward from the bike perpindicularly to the bike. My left leg was hooked on the bike across the seat with the back of my knee on the corner edge of the seat right behind the tank with my thigh going right across. My right foot was on the peg pointing forward with my leg and knee running parrallel to the bike also pointing forward  but my body spaced away from the bike. My ass was kinda hanging out in the breeze while this was going as as it was in contact with virtually nothing. The major problem with this was that my shoulders weren't turned facing into the turn enough even though I could "kiss the mirror" from how I was positioned and my head was looking through the turn as you are supposed to. This was okay for going slow and developing a rythem and tweaking and tuning things and relearning how to properly do it better for the different bike, but in the end, it also took changing some parts to better achieve the end result.

hope this doesn't confuse things for you and gives you some bare bones from how I saw things....

[ducnymph]

Nekkidchic, thanks for sharing your pics!  I can see that the track is becoming your new home!    I wish I had my own private track to play on! I didn't start riding until I moved out here to Cali, but maybe I'll have to check out a track when I visit back home in FL.  Yup, born and raised in Hollywood, FL (yes, there's a hollywood there) and moved out here ten years ago.

I totally agree with what zooom and stopintime said, and if I may, I'd like to chime in a little. The physics of riding is very counter-intuitive and getting to the inside of the turn with your body doesn't make any sense at first. My basic understanding is that when you're turning the body and bike is effected by the centrifugal force that wants to pull you outwards. It's like spinning a five lb weight on a string -- the weight stays in an arc around the center while centrifugal force pulls it outward. Leaning into the turn helps you turn better and faster because the combined center of gravity of the bike and yourself is pulling towards the center countering the centrifugal force. 

Using more lean angle decreases the tires' contact patch, and therefore traction. That's why getting off and getting your body on the inside is better. You'll get more speed while keeping more meat of the tire on the road. Monsters have limited clearance and when you start draggin' hard parts you've reached maximum lean angle. The only way to get more speed is to get off farther. Like zooom said pointing your feet and using your legs to anchor your self is very effective. Your grip and arms should be totally loose. I really suggest reading Lee Parks Total Control. He explains so much in laymans terms so dummies like me can understand it 

And you're not too small btw! There are gp riders smaller than you who do amazing things on 230 hp machines.
Dani Pedrosa is 5'1" and 103 lbs! 

[NekkedChic]

BRILLIANT and big thank you's all!

Nymph!  Pedrosi is my HERO lol  Been all over internet for vids of him btw   

I am about to start a new thread (warning LOL)    Seriously.   Just wrapping up a NC mountain and Gap trip on the Monster and I have come to conclusion I am OUT-riding Monster.  There are some things I now know I MUST do to get more out of the bike and ride safer-street AND track.   
1.  REARSETS!   Held off becuz so damned expensive, but at this point will be worth every last penny.   Yes, I AM scraping shifter/peg.  EVEN when way off this bike. I am on edge of tires, wore my lil elephants off LOL  but still within good contact space.
2.  SideStand work:   ANYone wanna chime in here???   The big ole foot rest WILL be removed first-I have scraped this to hell on track and street.  Suggestions?

I cannot be only one with these issues-I have more vid coming to show how much I AM off bike now and still scraping hard parts.

AND, irony here: on this mountain trip, woman brought her S2R/800 and went DOWN on Gap becuz, ready for this?  Her peg dug in and high-sided her.   JUST what my concerns all this time were and she did this in front of us!   HOWEVER!  They also both lowered this bike AND rear sag/spring WAYYYY too soft!!   

THANKS ALL, getting there, but little too fast for the Monster LOL

[swampduc]

Any suspension mods to your bike, NekkedChic?

[NekkedChic]

Swamp-
the ONLY thing done is SLIGHT adjust of rear spring-took preload out/down, softened a BIT and did this only maybe couple months ago now.   Prior,  the bike was stiff as HELL. I could jump on it with all I had all day long and not budge it at all.  Now, when I sit, barely feel a give, but bike HAS ridden nicer.  Hard to imagine this teenie change could make a big difference, but do you think it is worth changing back to try? 

Have also had GOOD suspension guys/friends check it out at track and they felt it ideal. 

My new concern is, if I put on rearsets and cut off foot tab thingy on sidestand, sure they will give me more "clearance" but maybe they are working as "feelers" for me right now and keeping me from taking it too far outta contact with tires??  Just creepy to hit that stuff, and it skipped bike sideways on track in turn 8 last time AND now to see the rider with us over weekend at Gap who went down HARD becuz her peg hit/dug in. (BUT her bike is lowered and super soft suspension btw).   

Tks for patience again guyz!  Hope u do not give up on me here!