Maintenance: Who'd have thunk it?

[Cloner]

So I've got this shiny new MH900e, and when I picked it up I was presented with paperwork that showed where it had been serviced at 6c miles, so I figured all was well. 

Now it's due for it's 6k service and I've begun the process.  I've serviced my own two-valvers for nearly a decade, so I wasn't concerned with doing this one. 

I removed the false sump and drained the oil and changed the filter.  I've gotta say, it didn't look too bad for 3k old oil, so I got to thinkin'.....does this really need a valve adjustment?  I had almost convinced myself to let it go for another 6k, but I started feeling guilty, so I dug in.

First thing I did was ruined two quick disconnect fittings removing the fuel tank, so I guess I'm in the market for a pair of those rascals.  Damn.  It doesn't take much to break those brittle little buggers, so if you have a FI bike and wanna play, remember those quick disconnects and unplug before you start to even look for fouling.  (that's all I was doing)

As I dug in, I discovered a number of things that didn't look as though they'd ever been disturbed.  This bothers me, because the valves should have been checked at 600 miles during that service, but were obviously not.  I rechecked the bill that I was given with the bike and it notes a valve adjustment.  I guess the now defunct dealer who "serviced" it ripped off the previous owner.  They were infamous, so good riddance to bad rubbish.

As I examined the valves before I ever touched a feeler gauge I felt that something was wrong.  Both exhaust openers were quite tight.  I could still spin the opening shims with my fingers (a sign that there's SOME clearance, but I couldn't get a .0015 feeler gauge under either one, indicating an effective zero clearance.  Not good.  As I measured further, I discovered that seven of the eight shims are out.  Three openers are too tight, and all closers are too loose. 

Note to self:  Never neglect valve adjustment, and never trust anyone else's work.  'Nough said.

With this many closers out, it might just be time to install a set of MBP collets, huh?

[kingbaby]

600 mile valve service 

[Cloner]

600 mile valve service 

The service manual says they should be checked at 600 (1000 km).  Makes sense to me, as the greatest rate of wear a machine sees is during its initial break-in period.  The valves beat on the seats for a little while and "seat" themselves....then they're supposed to be checked.  The dealership in question even claims to have checked them.....but the airbox has never been taken off the machine before.  Wonder how they got to the valves without removing the airbox?

Anyway, I hope PJ keeps a good selection of 2-valve shims.

Have you ever messed with MBP collets?  They claim to extend valve maintenance intervals to 12k and beyond.  Buddy Turner stuffed a set in his bike before he died, and he swore by 'em....but I don't know if he ever checked them after installation because he didn't ride that much.

MBP collets are machined bits that take the place of the half-rings Ducati use.  If you've ever reclearanced valves, you've noticed that the half-rings tend to deform a bit, as they only have a small point of contact on the valve, and likewise the closing shim.  If you look closely at the half-ring, you'll find that one side (the top) has a groove worn onto it's inside at about 60 degrees from horizontal where it contacts the shoulder of the valve's machined groove, and the bottom is worn shiny at the very bottom where it contacts the closing shim.  If you reinstall used ones upside down it significantly changes the valve clearance, so there's probably something to Brickwood's claim.  At $125, I'm seriously considering using a set right now.

If you're unfamiliar, you can research further at http://www.mbpducati.ca/can/shop/product_info.php?products_id=242&osCsid=4a64d89cc4738c94a9d3cb916e389fe1 if you choose.  They really don't say much, but they have a really pretty picture.   

Thoughts?

[kingbaby]

Someone here in town bought one of their kits, but for the life of me I don't remember who it is.
As far as a shim selection, PJ has so many it's ridiculous. At some point they bought them in bulk & I mean BULK. Last time we did inventory, Cris took the better part of a day counting them. He pretty much hated me for making him do that, til I reminded him that he was probably the one that order all of them. 

By the way, I only had 2 on my 4 valver out @7500.

[Punx Clever]

When I ran my valves I didn't have to remove the airbox to get to em... Unless something is seriously different between that bike and a S2r...

[hunkypunk]

Thoughts?

When you have a little free time why don't you come over and help me change the fork seals on you NT650?

[bonfy]

This is for informational purposes only.  After reading Cloner's post, I dug out my maintenance records on my 2007 and 2008 695 Monsters.  Both of the 600 mile services were performed by PJ's.  It's basically just an oil change and a check of the brakes, chain, fluids, and tires.  I had them do a belt check, but that's optional at the 600 mile service.  That's all the owner's manual calls out.  It is at the 7.5K service that they check and adjust the valve clearance for my year and model.  I thought that was what I remembered, but wanted to verify it before I posted.  

[Cloner]

When I ran my valves I didn't have to remove the airbox to get to em... Unless something is seriously different between that bike and a S2r...

It's radically different, then.  The airbox sits atop both the vertical and horizontal intake covers on the MH.  There's no way to get to them, much less see what you're getting to, on this bike without removing the airbox.  On my Supersport, you have to remove the shock to get to the vertical exhaust.  Every bike is different, I guess.

I dug out my maintenance records on my 2007 and 2008 695 Monsters.....It's basically just an oil change and brakes, chain, fluids, and tire check.  I had them do a belt check, but that's optional at the 600 mile service.  That's all the owner's manual calls out.  It is at the 7.5K service that they check and adjust the valve clearance for my year and model.

As to adjustment at 600, the folks at the now defunct Atlanta area dealer from whom the bike was purchased definitely charged the PO for an adjustment they didn't render.  Maybe he was just trying to be safe by asking for that service, or maybe they urged him to do it, but he got screwed nonetheless.  As I said, that dealer was notorious for such antics, which is probably why they're out of business.  I have the service manual on my computer at work, but I thought it asked for a valve check at 600. 

If they didn't check them, then they definitely didn't screw 'em up.....but all four valves are out on their closers, and all but one opener is out. 

Intake valve opener clearance allowable:  .10 to .12mm
Exhaust valve opener clearance allowable:  .12 to .15mm
All valves opener service limit:  .05mm
All valves closer clearance allowable:  .03 to .05mm
All valves closer service limit:  .20mm

So basically, there are allowable clearances, and there are service limits.  The allowable clearances are what technicians are to adjust to when setting clearances.  Service limits are how far the technician is allowed to let the valves wear before adjusting them.  I don't use the service limits, as I expect the valves to be within the allowable clearances in all instances.  If the valve is outside of the recommended allowable then I adjust it rather than let it beat itself to the service limit.

The butcher's bill reads like this:

Vertical Intake:  Opener, .102mm (OK) Closer, .132mm (within the service limit, but outside of the allowable)
Vertical Exhaust:  Opener, 0.00mm (I couldn't squeeze in a .001" feeler....so REALLY out)  Closer, .272mm (outside of even the service limit)
Horizontal Intake:  Opener, .076mm (within the service limit, but outside of the allowable) Closer, .209mm (outside of even the service limit)
Horizontal Exhaust:  Opener, .025mm (outside the service limit) Closer, .183 (within the service limit, but outside of the allowable)

So, basically, there are four shims outside of the service limit, three within the service limit but outside of my comfort range (the allowable), and one that's OK.  Pretty poor shooting in anybody's book.  The worst I've ever encountered in playing with other two-valvers is three of eight outside of allowable.

As to your Hawk's fork seals, Larry, I'll gladly replace them if you have a manual I can work from.  I'm not 100% familiar with those forks (even though I owned one about 15 years ago), so it's better to have a manual.  If you don't have one, I'll see what I can find online.  I have the damper rod bleeding tool and a "horse syringe" for setting oil level, but I doubt I have seal drivers for whatever size those are....my Showas can be done with a drift so that's what I use on them.  The rest should be relatively simple as long as we have proper destructions.  Do you have a way to support the bike whilst we remove the forks (like a front lift)?  If not, can you measure the hole in the middle of the steering stem so we can see if mine will work on that bike?  If it won't, we'll think of something.

[Punx Clever]

My memory serves that the airbox was mostly tucked between the frame... valve access covers were all accesible once the battery tray and accompaning mounts were removed... yeah, it was tight to get into the space, but it could be done. But I just worked from the bottom of the bike on the horizontal and the top on the vertical.  I suppose it helped that I had the bike on a table though.

[Cloner]

The MH doesn't have a battery box, it has two battery brackets that are partially supported by the horizontal intake valve cover.  It has an airbox that tucks into the "vee" between the cylinders that occludes access to the intakes, and a fuel tank (under the fuel tank cover) that occludes access to the vertical exhaust.  So, basically, once you remove all the bodywork, the fuel tank, the airbox, and one of the battery supports, you're home free.   

Remember....you have to be able to get your hands in there and see what's going on in order to properly measure, and you have to be able to compress the closer fork against it's "helper" spring to measure loaded gap (in addition to the static unloaded gap) in order to determine closer clearance.

My Supersport is much easier.  Ducati left a gap on the bottom of the battery box to adjust the valves through, but my hands are a little large for that so I used to have to remove the airbox on it, but I split the airbox and battery support (they were one plastic piece at one time) so now I just snatch out the battery box and remove the shock and it's simple as pie.  Sounds like your Monster is, too.

[DucMouse the Mighty]

damn if i knew u were doing this i would brought and pizza and beer so i could learn a little something 

next time?

[hunkypunk]

As to your Hawk's fork seals, Larry, I'll gladly replace them if you have a manual I can work from.  I'm not 100% familiar with those forks (even though I owned one about 15 years ago), so it's better to have a manual.  If you don't have one, I'll see what I can find online.  I have the damper rod bleeding tool and a "horse syringe" for setting oil level, but I doubt I have seal drivers for whatever size those are....my Showas can be done with a drift so that's what I use on them.  The rest should be relatively simple as long as we have proper destructions.  Do you have a way to support the bike whilst we remove the forks (like a front lift)?  If not, can you measure the hole in the middle of the steering stem so we can see if mine will work on that bike?  If it won't, we'll think of something.

I can hang it from the ceiling, I have a shop manual and in the manual it says you need a screw driver to remove the old seals. Thanks Bro

[Cloner]

damn if i knew u were doing this i would brought and pizza and beer so i could learn a little something 

next time?

It's not too late, as I have to get shims and fuel fittings before I reassemble.  I can show you how to measure as I put it back together if you like, as it's always good practice to measure once it's back in one piece, anyway.  If PJ's has the shims I'll probably do it Tuesday night.  DucNight at Cloner's house?

If nothing else, I can reassemble one valve, as I had one of the closing shims that I need in my "inventory".

Larry, do you want to change the fork oil whilst you're changing seals?  It's good practice to change fork oil every couple of years, anyway.

[hunkypunk]

Larry, do you want to change the fork oil whilst you're changing seals?  It's good practice to change fork oil every couple of years, anyway.

check! Already bought fork oil...waiting for a front tire...early november arrival. check!

[Punx Clever]

now that I look at pictures... yeah, that would suck the big one to work on.