1000cc in 2012

[gm2]

http://www.motomatters.com/news/2009/11/06/ezpeleta_mulls_a_return_to_1000cc.html

[zooom]

I for 1 would be very happy to see 1000cc's again...I liked the cowboy antics of the 990 era of riding...

[Spidey]

Me too.  Though I wonder, if they have the same gas restrictions and with the current state of electronics, how different would the 1000s would be than the 800s?  They wouldn't be backin' 'em in and sliding 'em around the way they used to.  The electronics packages won't let them.  And they won't be lighting up the rear ala McCoy b/c the electronic won't let 'em.  And there will still be a huge advantage for the smaller riders, because the electronics will keep the tires planted.

[gm2]

Me too.  Though I wonder, if they have the same gas restrictions and with the current state of electronics, how different would the 1000s would be than the 800s?  They wouldn't be backin' 'em in and sliding 'em around the way they used to.  The electronics packages won't let them.  And they won't be lighting up the rear ala McCoy b/c the electronic won't let 'em.  And there will still be a huge advantage for the smaller riders, because the electronics will keep the tires planted.

all true.  but if you're a larger human it won't require you to ride the thing like a 250.  you can use some of that weight transfer and be able to square up some corners without losing tons of time.

(aka, the major complaint about the 800s... and my personal opinion about why they went to them in the first place)

[Speeddog]

Seems to be for sure....

http://www.motomatters.com/news/2009/11/07/motogp_back_to_1000cc_from_2012.html

[desmoquattro]

Seems to be for sure....

http://www.motomatters.com/news/2009/11/07/motogp_back_to_1000cc_from_2012.html

make the beast with two backs, I hope not. I like the high corner speed of the 800's. And I wonder whether keeping the formula the same for a while will give certain manufacturers a chance to get closer to parity? I know opinions vary on this, but I like these things way more than the point & shoot 1000cc bikes.

[derby]

make the beast with two backs, I hope not. I like the high corner speed of the 800's. And I wonder whether keeping the formula the same for a while will give certain manufacturers a chance to get closer to parity? I know opinions vary on this, but I like these things way more than the point & shoot 1000cc bikes.

it's not necessarily a manufacturer/parity issue.

look at the number of race winners 990vs800:

Number of different MotoGP race winners by manufacturer:

990cc (2002-2006)
Honda: 10 - Valentino Rossi, Sete Gibernau, Max Biaggi, Marco Melandri, Nicky Hayden, Dani Pedrosa, Alex Barros, Toni Elias, Makoto Tamada, Tohru Ukawa.
Yamaha: 2 - Valentino Rossi, Max Biaggi.
Ducati: 2 - Loris Capirossi, Troy Bayliss.
Suzuki: 0
Kawasaki: 0
Aprilia: 0
Roberts: 0
WCM: 0
Moriwaki: 0

800cc (2007 onwards)
Yamaha: 2 - Valentino Rossi, Jorge Lorenzo.
Ducati: 2 - Casey Stoner, Loris Capirossi.
Honda: 2 - Dani Pedrosa, Andrea Dovisioso
Suzuki 1 - Chris Vermeulen
Kawasaki: 0
Roberts: 0
Ilmor: 0

ok, so it's the same three factory teams with winning 800cc bikes, but where are all the privateer winners like the 990cc era?

[EvilSteve]

I'm not sure it's really that straight forward. The are more privateer Honda teams in both cases, Honda just didn't do as good a job with the 800 as they did with the 990. There's also the question of where the talented riders are in terms of manufacturers. Personally I think that they would be better off leaving it alone for a few more years. That way Honda could get their bike up to speed and you'd get more privateer wins. I doubt that the 990s wouldn't have ended up with the same state of tune that the 800s have if the teams had been allowed to continue development.

[desmoquattro]

I'm not sure it's really that straight forward. The are more privateer Honda teams in both cases, Honda just didn't do as good a job with the 800 as they did with the 990. There's also the question of where the talented riders are in terms of manufacturers. Personally I think that they would be better off leaving it alone for a few more years. That way Honda could get their bike up to speed and you'd get more privateer wins. I doubt that the 990s wouldn't have ended up with the same state of tune that the 800s have if the teams had been allowed to continue development.

Ditto. I had the same thoughts on privateers, but sort of came to the realization that keeping the formula the same for several years might help things there. Each new change in displacement likely results in a flurry of changes in virtually everything else...electronics, etc. I say leave 'em alone for a while.

[mitt]

Ditto. I had the same thoughts on privateers, but sort of came to the realization that keeping the formula the same for several years might help things there. Each new change in displacement likely results in a flurry of changes in virtually everything else...electronics, etc. I say leave 'em alone for a while.

+2
The reason for change is almost always about lower cost - in racing, and business in general.  But, nobody ever measures how much the change itself costs, just the final product.

mitt

[Spidey]

all true.  but if you're a larger human it won't require you to ride the thing like a 250.  you can use some of that weight transfer and be able to square up some corners without losing tons of time.

Can someone explain the physics of this to me? or give me a link?  Is it the same principle as 600 v. 1000 in non-MotoGP racing (which I understand intuitively, but can't explain that well in writing)?  Seems like the point-n-shoot style versus corner speed style makes much less of a difference with modern electronics.  Is that wrong?

[EvilSteve]

I personally don't want point & shoot in GP, that's what superbike is for. It's not like Rossi is a small guy either.

Change always costs more in the short term and, if you don't achieve the goals the change was targeting, change costs more short, medium and long term.

Asking/telling manufacturers to develop a whole new engine & platform isn't going to save anyone any money. Having a stock 1kcc motor and custom frames like moto2 won't save anyone any money in the short term and will only make money for the people who own the rights and only if more teams join *and* fans actually give a shit about the new series. I personally think that the fans actually care about the brands. I think moto2 dilutes the value for brands because they can't really ever say it was their bike that won (think NASCAR). What is moto2 saying with a win? It's saying that the rider is the best on the day, it's not really saying anything about a manufacturer so why do they want to be in a series with that formula?

I think moto2 will probably be ok (not for sure though) but mainly because Piagio was the only manufacturer who cared. In GP, going to stock motor will see the manufacturers leave IMO which I personally don't want.

Spidey, I could be wrong but if you think about where the CoG is on a bike with a big/heavy person as opposed to a small/light person, in theory a lighter person can run at higher corner speeds. If you give he big/heavy person a more powerful bike, they can make up for the deficit.

[Cider]

Can someone explain the physics of this to me? or give me a link?  Is it the same principle as 600 v. 1000 in non-MotoGP racing (which I understand intuitively, but can't explain that well in writing)?  Seems like the point-n-shoot style versus corner speed style makes much less of a difference with modern electronics.  Is that wrong?

I thought it was a matter of torque and horsepower?  That is, the smaller bike can't accelerate as hard, particularly from low rpms, so speed has to be conserved as much as possible.

I was under the impression that 1000cc were cheaper, because it's easy for everybody to make "too much" horsepower.  It's harder to squeeze the performance out of the 800s, so the ones with deep pockets (and good riders) run away from everybody else.  True or false?

[gm2]

I was under the impression that 1000cc were cheaper, because it's easy for everybody to make "too much" horsepower.  It's harder to squeeze the performance out of the 800s, so the ones with deep pockets (and good riders) run away from everybody else.  True or false?

true'ish

[gm2]

http://www.motomatters.com/news/2009/11/09/fim_president_world_superbike_contract_n.html

closer... and could be an option for production-based engines (sorta)