Electric Motorcycles: Why?

[PhilB]

battery tech is getting better all the time. smaller and higher capacity units are continually being developed and methods for faster charging are also taking place. the first czsyz bike had 10kwh  with 98V+, the 2011 bike (not the one that just competed, the generation just before that) put out 12.5kwh with 330v, it also weighed about 50lbs less and made in the neighborhood of 4X as much hp (200+).

more interesting than that though, is that the 2010 had the same kwh and V but only made about 125hp. clearly they are making advancements on the entire drive system, not just its motors and batteries.

im not actually a huge e-bike fan, but I acknowledge the serious advancements that are going on with them. As a general principal I hate hearing people brand bash one bike over another. Similarly, I think its stupid to hate on a new drive system that has only recently been heavily developed for this application.  its in its infancy and rather than being excited by the possibility of a new toy, everyone wants to shit all over it for not being the same as the old toys.

you cant really say what its potential is until the development stagnates a bit.  when you stop seeing hp and battery life advance multiples, and when big competitors start dropping out then maybe you can claim its plateaued. but not only is that not happening, nobody is even mentioning it. every year its a new bike that totally eclipses the old one, with a new bike in development set to do the same thing next year.

Battery tech is getting better, but not by anywhere near enough.  And further it can't, even in theory, get good enough.  Gains of 10% here and 15% there won't cut it, when to compete with fuel it needs to improve by about 900%.

The e-bike that's going to change the game will have inwheel motors that are regerative, a composite frame with a fuel cell and battery combo for on the go fueling and storage of regenerative braking.

Fuel cells could make it work, IF we can solve the problem of safely storing enough hydrogen in a small and light enough package.  It's the same problem, sort of, although I think it's more likely to be solvable in the long term.

PhilB

[Raux]

Fuel cells could make it work, IF we can solve the problem of safely storing enough hydrogen in a small and light enough package.  It's the same problem, sort of, although I think it's more likely to be solvable in the long term.

PhilB

problem solved... a company is making bio-methanol fuel cells

[ManaloEA]

Lets say we are on a long ride on a hot summer day... A few hundred miles into the ride, you'd be spending atleast about 4 hrs [with all your gear on] to charge back to full capacity with a booster charger.. while everybody else would have gassed up in 2 min and get going 

You are basing your comment on old battery technology. Newer batteries with shorter recharge cycles are being developed every day. And who is to say that the manufacturers don't begin experimenting with ultra-capacitors, which can completely intake and discharge in seconds. It's just a matter of time.

[Raux]

supercapacitors were a direction I wanted to go when working with the Northern Arizona University Electric race car in 1995. We were using 20 gel cell batteries in a double serial-parallel setup. swapping the batteries after a couple of laps sucked. I wanted to setup a conductive charger to recharge the car just like a regular race pit stop.

ZAP... charged... go

[ManaloEA]

Exactly. (Finally someone else understands) All you would need after the super or ultra capacitor is a variable voltage atenuator. Low voltage / high amperage for low end acceleration. High voltage / low amperage for high speed cruising.

[ducatiz]

Exactly. (Finally someone else understands) All you would need after the super or ultra capacitor is a variable voltage atenuator. Low voltage / high amperage for low end acceleration. High voltage / low amperage for high speed cruising.

throw in 400 lbs of batteries and bike that looks like a turd and you're in!

[ManaloEA]

throw in 400 lbs of batteries and bike that looks like a turd and you're in!

With ultracapacitors, you will not need batteries.

[ducatiz]

With ultracapacitors, you will not need batteries.

With flux capacitors you won't need ultra capacitors.  With alchemy you won't need gold. 

[ManaloEA]

With flux capacitors you won't need ultra capacitors.  With alchemy you won't need gold.

What are you drinking? And why are you not sharing with the rest of the forum? - Just kidding.

The reality is that modern ultra capacitors can store enough energy to almost rival current lithium battery technology. And they are lighter. The issue with them is the volatility and explosive nature, making them a safety risk. But when you think about it, sitting on three and a half gallons of extremely flammable fluid is not exactly safe either.

[ducatiz]

What are you drinking? And why are you not sharing with the rest of the forum? - Just kidding.

The reality is that modern ultra capacitors can store enough energy to almost rival current lithium battery technology. And they are lighter. The issue with them is the volatility and explosive nature, making them a safety risk. But when you think about it, sitting on three and a half gallons of extremely flammable fluid is not exactly safe either.

If you know of an instance in the last 100 years of someone's gas tank exploding, let me know.  The worst thing that I know of is leaks (which happened with the plastic tank deformation as well) but no fatalities.  ***EDIT>  I am referring both to motorcycles and on-road use.  Not cars and not racing, especially not non-homologated racing.

Moreover, NHTSA requires gas tanks to be crash proof.  IT can happen, but it doesn't often.

What provision can be made for explosive capacitaters?

[PhilB]

What are you drinking? And why are you not sharing with the rest of the forum? - Just kidding.

The reality is that modern ultra capacitors can store enough energy to almost rival current lithium battery technology. And they are lighter. The issue with them is the volatility and explosive nature, making them a safety risk. But when you think about it, sitting on three and a half gallons of extremely flammable fluid is not exactly safe either.

Yes it is.  In real life, bikes (and other ICE vehicles) pretty much never explode.  And when they do, it's because they have been on fire for a while already.

I don't know a lot about ultra capacitors, but there are people who do, and I'm going to venture a wild guess that if that was the solution to this, easy as you say, someone would be doing that.  And that therefore there are good reasons why not.

One might be your own statement that "modern ultra capacitors can store enough energy to almost rival current lithium battery technology."  Since current lithium battery technology only holds about 10% of the energy that such vehicles need to hold to be practical, that's not nearly enough yet.

PhilB

[ManaloEA]

Capacitors are built with regulators to keep them from completely expelling their energy at full rate. However if a unit is tampered with or damaged (let's say during an accident), then the complete discharge in milliseconds could occur. This would equate to the explosion or ignition of a gas tank during an accident. And while you pointed out that gas tanks are supposed to be "crash proof", one cannot completely protect a gas tank, even on a car nor can one predict the angle and trajectory of damaging force during an accident. The the possibility is always a clear and present danger.

So to your point, there is no silver bullet solution with any type of stored electricity, or stored energy for that matter.

[ducatiz]

Capacitors are built with regulators to keep them from completely expelling their energy at full rate. However if a unit is tampered with or damaged (let's say during an accident), then the complete discharge in milliseconds could occur. This would equate to the explosion or ignition of a gas tank during an accident. And while you pointed out that gas tanks are supposed to be "crash proof", one cannot completely protect a gas tank, even on a car nor can one predict the angle and trajectory of damaging force during an accident. The the possibility is always a clear and present danger.

So to your point, there is no silver bullet solution with any type of stored electricity, or stored energy for that matter.

My point was that gas tank explosions are exceptionally rare -- rare enough not to worry about.  Rare enough that in 30someodd years of riding, I've never heard of one.

It remains to be seen if an ultracapacitater tumbling down the tarmac will be as stable.

[Howie]

Interesting thread.  IMO, the electric car as a replacement for an ICE car or an electric bike as a replacement for a ICE bike for most people?  Clearly not.  But if you have the extra $ for one as a limited use vehicle?   Why not?

The best they got (IMO) when it comes to hybrid vehicles?  The type of bus they use in NYC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_bus
Could we do similar with cars?  I think so.  It would still be a compromise, but everything is.

One possible solution to both battery charging and increasing usefulness:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/05/better-place
You still probably wouldn't do too well when it comes to commuting to and from your country home, but it could make a difference in town even though it doesn't solve the issue that batteries still suck and may not be so green if cradle to grave pollution is considered.

It wasn't that long ago when folk thought the automobile could never replace the horse and buggy or the train could replace the stage coach.

[ManaloEA]

If you know of an instance in the last 100 years of someone's gas tank exploding, let me know. 

The Ford Pinto