TotalSeal rings?

[ducatiz]

I used to put these on VWs -- it is a two-part ring that seals the piston in the cylinder wall all the way around -- no gap.  They work great, and practically eliminate all blowby.

Anyone try these on a Ducati engine? I might with the current pantah I am building...

[Langanobob]

Is this for your Elefant?

Total Seal rings sound good on paper and I've always been interested in them but never used them.  I spent some time with Google and got a lot of mixed reviews.  Some guys really like them, but a lot  of others had problems with excessive oil consumption and rings never seating.   What I gathered is that end gap is critical and with high RPM motors needs to be higher than Total Seal recommends.  Cylinder crosshatch pattern was also reported to be critical. 

I think if I was considering using them on a Duc motor I'd call Total Seal and talk to the their tech reps about some of the reported issues and see what they have to say.

Hope someone with FHE will chime in.

[ducatiz]

Is this for your Elefant?

Total Seal rings sound good on paper and I've always been interested in them but never used them.  I spent some time with Google and got a lot of mixed reviews.  Some guys really like them, but a lot  of others had problems with excessive oil consumption and rings never seating.   What I gathered is that end gap is critical and with high RPM motors needs to be higher than Total Seal recommends.  Cylinder crosshatch pattern was also reported to be critical. 

I think if I was considering using them on a Duc motor I'd call Total Seal and talk to the their tech reps about some of the reported issues and see what they have to say.

Hope someone with FHE will chime in.

No, for another 650 motor though.

I used to use them extensively on VW motors and I had little problem.  Difference is the cast iron cylinders and rings got a real seating -- we always used straight 30 weight non-detergent oil run at about 4000 rpm for 3 minutes after it was warmed up.  I would get around 130-150 psi on a cylinder and it would pretty much stay that way forever. 

I can't imagine having an oil problem with the TS rings, my concern is the nikasil cylinders versus the cast iron ones I used on VWs.  I talked to them about this and they said their rings are iron or chromed and they recommend the chromed ones on nikasil, but that they require a "hard" run in for them to seat correctly.  THis makes sense to me as the chrome and nikasil are both very hard surfaces.

Once I was showing a friend how to do compression testing on his VW -- and how to approximate blowby with a leakdown test.  I showed him the difference in leakdown on his VW with factory rings and then on my hopped up bus engine (2.1L, stroked and overbored) with TS rings -- it held compression for a long time, I think it took about 3 minutes for the leakdown to go below factory spec.

[Speeddog]

Last I was looking at TS rings, only the second ring was a TS style.
Top ring was a normal compression ring.

They worked good on my Yamaha 'Virago' nitrous motor.
But that's really not that similar an application to yours....

And it was an iron liner.

[ducatiz]

Last I was looking at TS rings, only the second ring was a TS style.
Top ring was a normal compression ring.

yup.

[Langanobob]

Ducatiz quote

Once I was showing a friend how to do compression testing on his VW -- and how to approximate blowby with a leakdown test.  I showed him the difference in leakdown on his VW with factory rings and then on my hopped up bus engine (2.1L, stroked and overbored) with TS rings -- it held compression for a long time, I think it took about 3 minutes for the leakdown to go below factory spec.

A leakdown test has its purpose but it's not necessarily a definitive test of overall ring performance.  For example, Buna-N o-rings would hold compression literally forever in a static leakdown test, but wouldn't work so well at 7,000 RPM.  Don't  mean to sound like a smart-ass, just trying to make a point. 

Speeddog quote

Last I was looking at TS rings, only the second ring was a TS style.
Top ring was a normal compression ring.

Interesting.  Seems like if one is good, two should be better.   And the first ring is facing most of the combustion pressure and if any of the rings are going to be TS it should be the first one.  I wonder what TS' explanation is?  Also, I'm far from a ring expert but I thought there has to be a certain pressure drop across the first ring for it to seal and also for it to properly seat.  If the second ring, the TS one, works so well, any pressure escaping past the first ring would be trapped between the two rings, minimizing pressure drop across the first ring. 

I guess I'm thinking that the difference in gas escaping past a properly gapped and broken in set of conventional rings and a set of TS rings is not enough to make a measurable difference in engine performance.  But I don't know that as a fact. 

[ducatiz]

Ducatiz quote
A leakdown test has its purpose but it's not necessarily a definitive test of overall ring performance.  For example, Buna-N o-rings would hold compression literally forever in a static leakdown test, but wouldn't work so well at 7,000 RPM.  Don't  mean to sound like a smart-ass, just trying to make a point. 

Jackass!     grumble grumble.. Buna orings on pistons... grumble..

Of course BUNA rings would seal better in a leakdown test, I was referring to a leakdown test on a broken-in engine.. I did my leakdown on a vw bus motor that had about 40 k miles on it...

Speeddog quote
Interesting.  Seems like if one is good, two should be better.   And the first ring is facing most of the combustion pressure and if any of the rings are going to be TS it should be the first one.  I wonder what TS' explanation is?  Also, I'm far from a ring expert but I thought there has to be a certain pressure drop across the first ring for it to seal and also for it to properly seat.  If the second ring, the TS one, works so well, any pressure escaping past the first ring would be trapped between the two rings, minimizing pressure drop across the first ring. 

I guess I'm thinking that the difference in gas escaping past a properly gapped and broken in set of conventional rings and a set of TS rings is not enough to make a measurable difference in engine performance.  But I don't know that as a fact. 

They do sell a top ring, but not for the Ducati engine here is their comment on their website about the gapless top ring:

QUESTION:
What advantage does the gapless top ring offer over the gapless 2nd ring?
ANSWER:
The Total Seal gapless top ring is the natural evolution of the gapless second. By moving the gapless ring to the #1 ring groove we effectively seal the cylinder closer to the combustion chamber. This not only increases the cylinder seal on the compression and power stokes but also improves the ring seal on the intake stroke resulting in better cylinder filling on a normally aspirated engine. The increased amount of force generated by the combustion process in turn delivers a greater amount of energy to the crankshaft. The choice is yours and either ring offers superior cylinder sealing.

[Langanobob]

I'm still not convinced and I don't understand why the TS top ring would be the natural evolution of the TS second ring?  Seems to me that a gapless top ring would be first and if there's any evolution it would be to the second ring.

Also, did you ask TS about installing them in a used Nikasil cylinder?

I know that if someone has 100 customers and 90 are happy and 10 aren't, the happy 90 won't say much but the unhappy 10 will post all over the internet.  It was the seemingly large number of problems that I found while Googling for Total Seal rings that makes me dubious. 

I think I'll do some more looking and call TS myself and see what they can explain to me.  I know you asked for opinions from someone who's actually used them, not an armchair ringer.

[ducatiz]

I'm still not convinced and I don't understand why the TS top ring would be the natural evolution of the TS second ring?  Seems to me that a gapless top ring would be first and if there's any evolution it would be to the second ring.

it's a good question.  i assumed the reason was there was some need to allow gasses to pass so the second ring could seat, at least that was my reasoning when i was using them a lot.

Also, did you ask TS about installing them in a used Nikasil cylinder?

oh, that's a good question...   apparently most of the japanese bikes are using nikasil now too, so i imagine that's been covered..

I know that if someone has 100 customers and 90 are happy and 10 aren't, the happy 90 won't say much but the unhappy 10 will post all over the internet.  It was the seemingly large number of problems that I found while Googling for Total Seal rings that makes me dubious. 

I think I'll do some more looking and call TS myself and see what they can explain to me.  I know you asked for opinions from someone who's actually used them, not an armchair ringer.

the only problem i know of personally was another fella who tried them once.. after talking with him (this was 15 years ago) i figured out he did not do the proper bed-in procedure for them, he basically installed them and that was it. 

using cast iron rings with iron jugs, you can do this because even with high detergent oil, the iron will eventually seat, but TS rings are chromed and seating requires more effort thant just ring and go.

[ducpainter]

it's a good question.  i assumed the reason was there was some need to allow gasses to pass so the second ring could seat, at least that was my reasoning when i was using them a lot.


<snip>

Combustion pressure generally is required behind the ring to create enough tension to seal.

I'm not familiar enough with the total seal design to know how theirs work.

[ducatiz]

Combustion pressure generally is required behind the ring to create enough tension to seal.

I'm not familiar enough with the total seal design to know how theirs work.

it is two rings, one large and one small.  the large ring has a machined surface that the smaller one fits into.  when you install, it's just like installing two rings.  first one goes on and then the smaller one goes on into the larger one.

it works very well.  i don't know how much pressure you'd get behind the ring other than the piston groove pushing it back upward.

[Langanobob]

Combustion pressure generally is required behind the ring to create enough tension to seal.

I'm not familiar enough with the total seal design to know how theirs work.

That brings up another question.  With basically two rings per groove, there's another path between the two rings for some combustion pressure to escape from behind the ring.   But probably very minor additional loss.

I guess if for some reason they don't seat or have other issues, it's not the end of the world to have to change them out for conventional rings.

[ducatiz]

That brings up another question.  With basically two rings per groove, there's another path between the two rings for some combustion pressure to escape from behind the ring.   But probably very minor additional loss.

I guess if for some reason they don't seat or have other issues, it's not the end of the world to have to change them out for conventional rings.

it's hard to explain how they fit together, you have to look at their diagrams

this article is interesting, it shows a comparison test with different types of rings-- conventional, gap-fit and TS gapless

[Langanobob]

I talked to an engine builder friend and he said the TS rings are OK but if you're trying to optimize performance on a carbureted 650 your time and money are better spent optimizing the jetting.   He didn't think there was anything to gain from TS rings in a street engine.  But nothing to lose either.  He did say that he makes a few passes with a ball hone on Nikasil, not that it does much.  He said most times he can hardly see any difference between the worn and unworn areas of the Nikasil cylinder walls.

I also called TS's tech line to ask about ring seating against a used Nikasil cylinder and also for an explanation of gapless top ring vs gapless bottom ring.  For competition they use a gapless top ring and for street they use gapless bottom.  But they couldn't explain why, and couldn't explain much about ring seating against used Nikasil cylinders and said Doug, their bike guru was gone for the day and would be back on Monday.  So, I'll call again then.