trijicon bible verses

[angler]

I realize I'm dancing on the head of a political pin with this post, but figure what the heck.  Mods, if this gets ugly, just delete.....

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-military-weapons-inscribed-secret-jesus-bible-codes/story?id=9575794



I am an atheist.  I also believe in complete separation of church and state.  It looks like part of the serial number, and probably that is what trijicon should have said....... 

[ducatiz]

It's a whole lot of silliness.

It's their logo, which happens to be a coded bible verse.  It doesn't mean anything to the user of the device unless he/she wants it to. 

[derby]

It's a whole lot of silliness.

It's their logo, which happens to be a coded bible verse.  It doesn't mean anything to the user of the device unless he/she wants it to.  

1) it's not their logo, it's an inscription they put on their product.

this is their logo:




2) this isn't about what it means to the user. we really don't need to be giving our "current enemy" any fuel to further their assertions that this is a religious war.

3) U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn up in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarked on a religious "Crusade" in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents.

[ducatiz]

1) it's not their logo, it's an inscription they put on their product.

this is their logo:

it's their logo.  just because it's not their "registered trademark" doesn't mean it's not.  a logo can be anything that they use and it doesn't have to be exclusive.

2) this isn't about what it means to the user. we really don't need to be giving our "current enemy" any fuel to further their assertions that this is a religious war.

what else do we need to do to worry about their feelings?

3) U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn up in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarked on a religious "Crusade" in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents.

i think most people fail to see how a TINY logo would be considered proselytizing.  It doesn't say "you must believe in xyz" it just refers to it.  

Are you going to get upset if we give them US cash as well?   Proselytizing has an active component, it isn't just passively placing a super-tiny logo on a product.   The only reason anyone even knows about it is because someone noticed and asked them.  

[angler]

1) it's not their logo, it's an inscription they put on their product.

this is their logo:




2) this isn't about what it means to the user. we really don't need to be giving our "current enemy" any fuel to further their assertions that this is a religious war.

3) U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn up in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarked on a religious "Crusade" in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents.

I'm on the fence on this one.  Part of me thinks it is straight up silliness.  I would buy the "no proselytizing" argument if, after firing, a tiny holographic jesus appeared in the sight and gave the sermon on the mount while the national anthem played.  

Right now, you would have to be in the know to know.  So is that proselytizing?  Does it open a door to proselytizing? Perhaps.  Definitely now that they have been outed!  Does it make the US look bad: yes.  Should we care about the feelings of a group of people we are at war with and have clearly already lost the battle for hearts and minds?  You don't want to hear my callous answer to that question.......

Mikey Weinstein (head of the foundation that broke the story), said it would be OK if they just left jesus out of it.  (Like "one nation under god").  

Who f'ed up?  The US military buyers did.  Trijicon did not add these coded verses to this manufacturing run, they are part of their serial mark.

[ducatiz]

It's interesting that all the verses referred to in the article have to do with sight and light/illumination...  I would chalk that up to be "well wishes" from teh makers.

[ducatiz]

 I would buy the "no proselytizing" argument if, after firing, a tiny holographic jesus appeared in the sight and gave the sermon on the mount while the national anthem played.  

"blessed are the cheesemakers.."

[angler]

It's interesting that all the verses referred to in the article have to do with sight and light/illumination...  I would chalk that up to be "well wishes" from teh makers.

Now if they had used Ezekiel 25:17, it would be a different story altogether:
"And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them."

[DRKWNG]

I'm not going to comment on either side as to whether this is proselytizing or not, but try to look at things from "their" perspective.  Our most frequent "enemy" over there, primarily in Afghanistan, is undereducated and more often than not illiterate; they believe what their mullahs tell them and things that seem quite silly or innocuous to us can come off as terribly offensive to them.  For example, a lot of our troops were having a poor time developing relations with the local Pashtun tribes where the Kiwis in the next province over were not.  Turns out, the mullahs had told the tribesmen that the US military used special X-ray devices to see through the Afghan women's robes, and in effect see their nude bodies.  You can imagine the uproar this caused, but what were these special devices?  Oakley sunglasses.  The mullahs were able to convince their congregation of this simply because the majority of them had never worn sunglasses and thus were easily miss-led.  So imagine how this could be spun if (more likely when) these same leaders get a hold of this news.

FYI: The Kiwis were under instruction to take off their sunglasses when interacting with the local villagers.  

[angler]

I'm not going to comment on either side as to whether this is proselytizing or not, but try to look at things from "their" perspective.  Our most frequent "enemy" over there, primarily in Afghanistan, is undereducated and more often than not illiterate; they believe what their mullahs tell them and things that seem quite silly or innocuous to us can come off as terribly offensive to them.  For example, a lot of our troops were having a poor time developing relations with the local Pashtun tribes where the Kiwis in the next province over were not.  Turns out, the mullahs had told the tribesmen that the US military used special X-ray devices to see through the Afghan women's robes, and in effect see their nude bodies.  You can imagine the uproar this caused, but what were these special devices?  Oakley sunglasses.  The mullahs were able to convince their congregation of this simply because the majority of them had never worn sunglasses and thus were easily miss-led.  So imagine how this could be spun if (more likely when) these same leaders get a hold of this news.

FYI: The Kiwis were under instruction to take off their sunglasses when interacting with the local villagers.  

Well said.  And really the only reason this is a SNAFU......the mullahs are excellent propaganda machines.

[junior varsity]

Now if they had used Ezekiel 25:17, it would be a different story altogether:
"And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them."

Maybe we can just get the pulp fiction version written on the damn thing:

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you. I been sayin' that shit for years. And if you ever heard it, it meant your ass. I never really questioned what it meant. I thought it was just a cold-blooded thing to say to a mothermake the beast with two backser before you popped a cap in his ass. But I saw some shit this mornin' made me think twice. Now I'm thinkin': it could mean you're the evil man. And I'm the righteous man. And Mr. 9mm here, he's the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the valley of darkness. Or it could be you're the righteous man and I'm the shepherd and it's the world that's evil and selfish. I'd like that. But that shit ain't the truth. The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be a shepherd.

But that's going to require a much larger scope.

I don't think this gets close to establishment of religion problems whatsoever. This isn't unconstitutional, there's no law being set forth that makes the military or citizens to x, y, or z with the tiny coded serial number.

On the other hand, there's lots of Hadji Don't Surf and other stuff, for example, One Source Tactical (where I got my "sneaky bag" - which is bad ass by the way) markets lots of St. James Cross appareled stuff. That's a lot more likely to hurt people's feelings than a hidden bible verse.


The shirt says "Infidel" in arabic, and depicts the mythical St. John The Moorslayer. On the one hand, I can see arab-americans feeling a little hurt by such gear, then again, we are at war and propaganda is important. Very important. Our side must feel it is right and the other side is wrong. If you do not think your side is correct and that the other side is incorrect, then it is near impossible to be effective.
Its like the first Mission Impossible movie, struggling over Job for so long, .