turns over and over but doesn't start - 05 S4R

[♣ McKraut ♣]

i've had recent issues that i had previously thought were related to the battery (oem yuasa, about 1.2 years old).  but recently had it load tested and everything looked great.  the other day i went to start the bike (i actually had the battery inside on a tender up until then), with temps around 36 F, and it would just turn over and over to the point where it does that "whirrrr" sound at the end of the cranking cycle.  i repeated this process several times, until finally, the battery just had no more cranking amps to give, and that was that.  this is the first time it has been that bad where it failed to start eventually... in the previous couple months, when it was cold out it seemed very reluctant to start...but would, eventually.  my question here is what system or component can i suspect as being at fault?  where do i start?  i have an experienced ducati tech that it looks like i'll just end up leaving the bike with for a while, but i would at least like to give him an idea or starting point as to what it might be.  a friend recently suggested bad fuel or dirty fuel filter as a culprit, but the fuel filter was replaced by above mentioned ducati tech less than a year ago with an OEM filter.  fuel has never been an issue for me in the past; i usually use 87 or 89, and use the major chains... exxon, shell, texaco, etc.  plus, the problem hasn't been ongoing for the last two or three months, and i've gone through several tanks of gas over that time frame.  i'm open to suggestions, though.   

[He Man]

1) How long has the gas been in the tank? Where do you live?
2) Did you check all your ground leads?
3) Did you check for good spark?
4) Did you check for any obstructions in the airbox?
5) Did you check the battery? Cold weather tends to kill batteries but I've had a lot of good luck with the newer sealed batteries from Yuasa. Mine has droped dead on me atleast 4 times and i revieved it, and has turned my bike on in weather as cold as 10degrees.

[Blackout]

sounds like a fueling issue.
remove your spark plugs, put in a few drops of gas, replace spark plugs and try it again. it should start up for just a second. Have you done any work requiring tank removal? check your lines to see they are not kinked up and are properly attached.

[Howie]

If you trust your tech, just describe all the symptom and conditions as well as you can, then let the tech do the diagnosis.  If not, then it is time to find a new tech or do it yourself.

[♣ McKraut ♣]

If you trust your tech, just describe all the symptom and conditions as well as you can, then let the tech do the diagnosis.  If not, then it is time to find a new tech or do it yourself.

yeah...the tech is very well respected among ducatisti around here; the only issue is getting ahold of him, as he basically works out of his garage out in the boonies   

so, looks like for now, i'll be trying to see if i can spot any kinked fuel lines (though tank has never been removed for anything, to my knowledge at least), drop the battery in, and give it another try.  should i bother with any kind of fuel additive as well?  i've also got new spark plugs on the way here from chris... so i'll be dropping those in as well.

also, to answer he man: no obstructions in the airbox... stock lid and stock (clean) paper filter.  ground leads look solid and free of dirt or corrosion etc.  present tank of gas is ~ three weeks old.  battery has been load tested, and i've been keeping it inside 100% on a battery tender; only taking it outside to drop it in to go for a ride.

[ducpainter]

yeah...the tech is very well respected among ducatisti around here; the only issue is getting ahold of him, as he basically works out of his garage out in the boonies   

so, looks like for now, i'll be trying to see if i can spot any kinked fuel lines (though tank has never been removed for anything, to my knowledge at least), drop the battery in, and give it another try.  should i bother with any kind of fuel additive as well?  i've also got new spark plugs on the way here from chris... so i'll be dropping those in as well.

also, to answer he man: no obstructions in the airbox... stock lid and stock (clean) paper filter.  ground leads look solid and free of dirt or corrosion etc.  present tank of gas is ~ three weeks old.  battery has been load tested, and i've been keeping it inside 100% on a battery tender; only taking it outside to drop it in to go for a ride.

How long has the bike been sitting?

[Howie]

I am not sure I understand what you mean by "that whirrrr sound.  How well does the bike crank over?  Do you hear the fuel pump prime?  Ditto on Nate's question.  How does the fuel smell?  Have you pulled the spark plugs?  Are you getting spark?  Are they wet?  What color are they?

[♣ McKraut ♣]

How long has the bike been sitting?

well, it's been sitting now for about three weeks.  at the time when it wouldn't start though, it had been sitting for about one week.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by "that whirrrr sound.  How well does the bike crank over?  Do you hear the fuel pump prime?  Ditto on Nate's question.  How does the fuel smell?  Have you pulled the spark plugs?  Are you getting spark?  Are they wet?  What color are they?

by "whirrr" sound it's almost like a "buzz", and occurs after the bike has turned over several times (five or six maybe?) and it does this defeating sound at the end (i'm trying to think of something to compare it to, but not coming up with anything.).  the battery was 100%, so it seemed to crank just fine, something just didn't want to ignite.  pretty sure (if i understand what it sounds like) that the fuel pump comes on and "primes".  not sure about fuel smell... i remember it being normal...  had the spark plugs out several months ago, and they looked fine, but just got in two new NGK's DCPR8E from chris (crazy-fast shipping!), so that should take care of any plug issues.  i can try it once more i guess with the existing plugs, and then pull them to see if they're wet (would that point the fault to the plugs if so?)?  then drop in the new plugs and see what happens?

[ducpainter]

well, it's been sitting now for about three weeks.  at the time when it wouldn't start though, it had been sitting for about one week.

<snip>

Fuel quality shouldn't be an issue.

On my 996 SBK the bike will crank with the kill switch on.

The kill switch shuts off the fuel.

You checked...correct?

[Speeddog]

First thing, IMO, is to check the battery ground cable where it attaches to the cases.

By 'check' I mean remove the bolt and clean it, clean the case around the bolt hole, clean the terminal end of the cable, apply a little dielectric grease, and re-assemble.

When that connection is bad, the voltage when cranking will drop so far that the ECU will not spark properly.

[♣ McKraut ♣]

First thing, IMO, is to check the battery ground cable where it attaches to the cases.

By 'check' I mean remove the bolt and clean it, clean the case around the bolt hole, clean the terminal end of the cable, apply a little dielectric grease, and re-assemble.

When that connection is bad, the voltage when cranking will drop so far that the ECU will not spark properly.

well, i attempted to remove it last night... but it proved to be such a B to get to with either wrench or socket, that i just cleaned it and applied a little dielectric grease to the outside.  but no evidence of corrosion at all, and is was definitely tight.

Fuel quality shouldn't be an issue.

On my 996 SBK the bike will crank with the kill switch on.

The kill switch shuts off the fuel.

You checked...correct?

i do have my blonde moments...but yes, the kill switch was in the "on" position   

after inspecting/cleaning the ground (no, i couldn't remove it) i pulled the old spark plugs, dropped in two new ones (NGK DCPR8E, stock gapping), and it started right up.  other things to note though, is that i did add a small amout of "HEET" to the tank a couple days ago, in case any water had accumulated in the tank, and also the temps yesterday were almost 60.  nonetheless, it started.  the RPMs were kind of hunting or surging for a little while, between 1200 and maybe 1800, but it seemed to settle down after a little while.

i took a couple pictures of both old plugs, just for any comments about condition/color, as i would like to know what people think about how they look.  mileage on them is probably around 5000 miles, and they've been installed about 1 year, give or take.

front plug:




rear plug:




also is there any way (or reason?) to clean the connection of that long black plastic plug connector?  i tried removing the rubber ends when i had it out, but i didn't want to pull too forcefully.

[ducpainter]

Those plugs weren't the issue.

With all the cranking you had done you would think the plugs would be at least damp.

It appears, to me at least, that it wasn't getting fuel.

How cold was it?

[♣ McKraut ♣]

sorry, to clarify the pics above were taken just last night after the swap was done, and as i didn't hit the start button until the new plugs were in, these old ones don't have any fuel on them.  the incident a while back when it wouldn't start, it was in the mid 30's (F).

[ducpainter]

sorry, to clarify the pics above were taken just last night after the swap was done, and as i didn't hit the start button until the new plugs were in, these old ones don't have any fuel on them.  the incident a while back when it wouldn't start, it was in the mid 30's (F).

I understand that.

My point was that if the engine had been cranked repeatedly and never started the plugs would show some signs of dampness even after sitting for 10 days.

I don't think it was getting fuel when it wouldn't start, and would have started fine with the old plugs last night.

[♣ McKraut ♣]

yeah, i was worried this was some type of fuel delivery issue, vs. spark issue.  i've tried looking as best i can that no fuel lines are kinked, and haven't been able to find anything that looks suspect as of yet.  i just hate the feeling that potentially in the future i'll be jumping on the bike to come home late at night and i run into the same issue.  if the weather cooperates with me i'm going to try taking it for a ride after work to use up the remaining fuel in the tank, and fill up with fresh stuff.