tougher laws.... or grow kids with thicker skin?

[Grampa]

http://www.slate.com/id/2249307/?GT1=38001

discuss


I'm not sure where I stand on this.

[Bun-bun]

While I feel sorry for the girl who died, and her parents, I have to vote for tougher skins. Yes, hazing or bullying is a bad thing, but a lot of kids went through, and go through a lot worse than being shoved into the wall, called a slut, or having a soda thrown at them.

The high school I attended in the late '70s just outside D.C. had 5 murders my senior year, 3 on campus, including one kid who got stabbed in the chest, and thrown in his locker on the Friday before a long weekend. They found him on Tuesday when people complained about the smell.

[Oldfisti]

Bullying in school and amongst kids is a pervasive problem that has been going on as long as there's been kids.


Phoebe's 3 month targeting by the bullies sounds like my entire public school experience.


My heart goes out to her family.  


However I didn't know it was a felony to be an asshole to somebody.


I'm not at all confident this will be any solution to the problem.


Thicker skins is a good start.

[il d00d]

People who were bullied in school to some degree or another are liable to look at this story and think I didn't check myself out, she's a weaker person for doing it.  There is truth to that.  These kids should be punished for being evil pregnant doges, but not for the suicide of this girl.

On the other hand, I have never heard anyone say "I was bullied relentlessly throughout school, and thank god for that."  Bullying is a common thing, but not an inherently healthy thing, either for the giver or the receiver.  You may live through the experience of being bullied and come out a stronger, more secure person, but we shouldn't let bullies go unpunished to force that outcome.  To me there is no real value in letting assholes operate with impunity, especially at that age.

[Raux]

the bullies aren't responsible for her suicide. they are asses and should be punished for being bullies.
you can't hold these people accountable for a suicide unless you go back and hold the kids that bullied the kids that carried out the colorado school shootings, responsible  for those killings.
the fact is, the people that carry out the acts, homicide or suicide, are responsible for their own actions. those that bullied them are responsible for the bullying. and the teachers and administrators that allow it to take place are responsible for the bullying as well. if they tried to stop half of the bullying going on, HS would be a lot easier.

[RAT900]

Can only speculate...she was probably damaged goods before this...

She could have gone to war had she been stronger/healthier and should have been prepared to if she was boffing other girls' BF's

High school is Lord of the Flies in that kids just beginning to develop social orders/breeding rights and norms etc., can be Darwinian

High schools and prisons have a lot in common too much

and closer supervision just makes people more subversive the behavioral pathology is still there

Bullies are usually false-alpha's...they go down easy if one selects the right tools and goes at them with suicidal resolve

poor girl here had that rage...but she turned it inward

[The Architect]

Since the internet, facebook, texting, etc., bullying seems to have been taken to a whole new level.  It's no longer a shovel in the hallway or derogatory name calling.  It can be an all access 24/7 event with now where to hide. 

Well put Rat900. 

[sbrguy]

question really is this.

how would you feel if your kid killed themselves because of bullying?

would you really say "well its just normal, my kid should have had a thicker skin and dealt with it, and Its my fault for not teachign them that and I want nothing done to the kids that were hazing my dead kid because well that is just normal growing up."

I call bull$hit, i highly doubt anyone would go so easy if your own kid was DEAD.  You would be calling for the heads of the kids you thought pushed your kid to death.

[swampduc]

I call bull$hit, i highly doubt anyone would go so easy if your own kid was DEAD.  You would be calling for the heads of the kids you thought pushed your kid to death.

Or better yet, hunting for them...

[cyrus buelton]

Can only speculate...she was probably damaged goods before this...

I was thinking the same thing when this story broke.


They are also charging a few of the guys with statutory rape. I wonder if that state uses that term for consensual sex with a minor? I recall reading there was a breakup involved before the bullying really started.


I feel bad for her family.

She took the easy way out in my opinion.

[Vindingo]

They are also charging a few of the guys with statutory rape. I wonder if that state uses that term for consensual sex with a minor?

I believe it was touched on a tiny bit in the article.  I think that the argument is that there is no consensual sex with a minor because they aren't old enough to consent.   

The whole 17 year old with a 15 year old is really tough.  It doesn't seem like a huge deal, but now that dude is going to be a "sex offender" the rest of his life. 

[Bun-bun]

/ but we shouldn't let bullies go unpunished to force that outcome.  To me there is no real value in letting assholes operate with impunity, especially at that age.

Agreed, but these kids are facing up to ten years prison time, and felony convictions on their records. That's ridiculous.

I call bull$hit, i highly doubt anyone would go so easy if your own kid was DEAD.  You would be calling for the heads of the kids you thought pushed your kid to death.

Of course we all would. We're disposed to protect the things we hold dear. That's why we have laws against hunting down the bullies, or the asshole that pulls out in front of you, or the guy who sells you a car that dies a week later, or the priest who molests your son. But the proper venue for these disputes is civil court, not criminal.
Sue the shit out of 'em. The kids(If possible), the parents, the school system. Sue 'em all. But don't ruin the kids futures with felony convictions.

[ducpainter]

Agreed, but these kids are facing up to ten years prison time, and felony convictions on their records. That's ridiculous.Of course we all would. We're disposed to protect the things we hold dear. That's why we have laws against hunting down the bullies, or the asshole that pulls out in front of you, or the guy who sells you a car that dies a week later, or the priest who molests your son. But the proper venue for these disputes is civil court, not criminal.
Sue the shit out of 'em. The kids(If possible), the parents, the school system. Sue 'em all. But don't ruin the kids futures with felony convictions.

When did death become all about the money?

I couldn't disagree more.

[Grampa]

question really is this.

how would you feel if your kid killed themselves because of bullying?

would you really say "well its just normal, my kid should have had a thicker skin and dealt with it, and Its my fault for not teachign them that and I want nothing done to the kids that were hazing my dead kid because well that is just normal growing up."

I call bull$hit, i highly doubt anyone would go so easy if your own kid was DEAD.  You would be calling for the heads of the kids you thought pushed your kid to death.

not exactly.

some people look inward and blame themselves for their own and their offsprings failures, and some look outward and blame others.

IMO... more times than not, increased penalties does nothing to curb the actual problem.  Locking people up with life sentences... people still kill. Chemical castration.... people still abuse kids. Kids and adults have been and, forever will be mean and stupid. Tougher laws usually breeds tougher assholes when you gloss over the problem. If you want killers gone..... kill them. If ya want pedophiles gone...kill them. If you want the bullies gone... don't punish the kindergartner who punches the kid that just took his chocolate milk. But no..... we live in a world where we deal with the problem by housing and feeding the killers, and because the prisons are so full of that shit, they treat the pedophiles as non violent offenders and put them in halfway houses with limited supervision, all in the name of compassion.  My wife used to teach the bullies in the court and community schools. It's amazing how much time, money and effort is put into trying to rehab the people who really don't want it..... all in the name of compassion. I think  that if that same amount of time and effort is put into teaching the those kids who want to play by the rules what real respect, real honor and what the real world is like, and how to properly deal with it, we'd see fewer kids fold like this young lady did. But we now live in a world where kids play sports where there are no winners, we lower grading curves, we make everything fair. The kid caught defending his chocolate milk is treated same as the kid with the sticky fingers.

In my world.... the girl would have taken a bat to the head of the meanest girl in the bunch, and we on the outside high five her. That'll learn ya for be'n mean.

[Bun-bun]

When did death become all about the money?

I couldn't disagree more.

It's not about the money. It's about making the best of an imperfect system, and punishing in proportion to the actions involved.
In this case, these kids gave this girl a lot of grief, but they didn't kill her.
Were their actions a contributing factor in her suicide? Almost certainly.
Did any of them ever entertain the possibility that their actions would have that impact? Almost certainly not.
Did any of them hand her a gun or rope and say "Here, go kill yourself."
No.
Did the parents take any action to stop the harassment? i.e. change schools, contact the administrators, the other kids parents, etc.?
Unknown.
IMO punitive action in this case should be handled in civil litigation, not to gain compensation but to punish those involved in a manner appropriate to their involvement.