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Author Topic: Aggressive riding with a pillion  (Read 11464 times)
El Matador
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« on: July 15, 2010, 10:55:51 AM »

Most people I know don't like to ride 2up. It's too much of a hassle and the added responsibility usually makes the whole ordeal pretty unsatisfactory. What most people don't know is that riding 2up can be just as fulfilling and exciting as a solo venture.

I ride spiritedly. I also ride with Desmolu a lot, and even though she has her own monster and is a pretty accomplished rider herself, we often find ourselves riding 2up. We could perfectly just take it easy and relax, but that would be no fun now would it?

Here is what I've learned about aggressive 2up riding through several thousand miles of twisties.

Disclaimer: I do not condone acting like an idiot on public roads, even if I do so myself at times. You must exercise extreme caution whilst riding with a passenger, your cargo is a hell of a lot more important than you are.


So you wan't to have a spirited ride with your lady; the first thing you need to know is that you're literally riding a completely different bike, and you need to make concessions for that. Take a very good few miles to relearn how to ride your bike, the main things you need to become accustomed to are the new geometry, brakes, suspension travel, throttle control. All these things change when riding with a pillion.

Geometry:

Since you now have a 100+ pounds over the rear wheel that you didn't have before, unless you completely respring your bike, your trail will change, making it larger. This means that the bike will be much more sluggish tipping into the corners, and surprisingly, more planted as well (usually). It's not uncommon to run wide the first times you ride with a pillion, so make sure to keep this in mind when picking your lines.

Braking:

It goes without saying that since you have so much added weight, your brakes are now much longer than before, so be careful when bombing into a corner, it's harder to shed speed. On the other hand, you now have a working rear brake! All that weight over the rear wheel means that you can now slam on your rear without worrying (too much) about locking it up. Of course you still have to be careful, it's not like you can jam your foot down with impunity, but it really does help slow you down.


Suspension Travel:

Your suspension will again be affected. The rear suspension will lose some travel, while amount of weight shifted will make the front want to dive like an Italian soccer player in the penalty area. These factors will affect you mostly by making you run wide both coming into the corner, and after the apex, so be careful!

Throttle control:

Now for the good part. Riding with a pillion actually makes it easier to be smoother on the throttle. Well not really smoother on the throttle, but the extra weight will dampen your inputs, making for a more forgiving ride.


Once you become accustomed to these changes, you can actually start riding aggressively and having fun out there.

The most important thing when riding 2up is actually not your input. Yeah, you read that right. Your pillion will have just about as much control over where the bike goes as you do, so any unexpected movements can be a nasty surprise. You need to have absolute trust in your pillion and vice versa if you want to have an enjoyable time.

Your pillion will have to move. The sack of potatoes approach does not work here; the passenger will move just as much as the rider, and all the same rules apply. She/he has to ride on the balls of his/her feet. They need to look through the corner. They need to shift their weight when braking. And most importantly, they need to hang off. Yes, Hang Off!

I'll walk you through a corner.

(Note: in these pictures I'm wearing boots two sizes too large for my feet, I wear size 11 and these are 13 and a half. It might look like poor foot positioning, but I really do have the balls of my feet on the pegs. I know, I know, sounds like an excuse.)

You approach your corner of choice, say it's a right hander, moderately tight. You brake hard. When you brake you usually move your weight as backwards as you can. With a pillion, you don't have to be as aggressive with your weight shift, but you need to engage your core a lot more to keep your passenger from sliding forward. Taking the weight on your arms spells disaster. As for your passenger, she needs to put her arms around you and onto the tank, and push back to avoid smashing into you. Trust me, your bits will thank me for it.

You can see in this pic where I'm holding myself up with my core, elbows slightly bent and Desmolu behind me has her arms around me pushing off.


Before you start setting up and looking through the turn, you must have finished 90% of your braking. You can trail brake if you want, but I mostly use trailbraking as a tool to correct a line if I have to. You both start setting up and looking towards where you want to go, while starting to position your bodies. It is extremely important that your pillion is looking towards where you're going. She should move with your back with her head slightly below your shoulder.



You continue setting up for the turn and make sure to look where you're headed. This picture might be a little exaggerated but you can tell we're both starting to hang off and lean. Also, you start tipping the bike in. When you're riding with a pillion, you'll be surprised to know that if you're hanging off right, you can actually go faster through a corner without having to lean the bike quite as much. This happens because of the added weight you have to throw into the inside of the corner.


You both try to get your heads as far down as possible. You need to hold yourself up with your legs and core, not your arms. If you look closely, my arm is relaxed, draped across the tank and I'm using the inside of my thigh to hold myself up. I could actually have better form and have my leg a little tighter against the tank. Desmolu is doing the same thing. You pillion needs to hold herself up with her legs and core and use only the hand on the outside of the tank as a guide. You can see how relaxed her arm is.


This pic really shows your pillion's ideal body positioning. As we approach the apex, Desmolu is completely holding herself up with her legs, her upper body is leaned towards the inside of the corner and is mirroring mine. I bet she could raise her arms and nothing would happen. We still haven't finished leaning, and If you see closely, you can see the forks are compressing a bit from me adjusting the line through trailbraking.


Basically same as before, You can see I'm done trailbraking and am about to hit the apex.


The photographer missed us hitting the apex, but this is a great shot of right afterwards. you can really see Desmolu's body positioning. One of the beautiful things about riding with a pillion is that you have so much weight over the rear that you can really hammer it after the apex without having to worry so much about the rear slipping out. That thing stays so planted it's beautiful. If you're really going at it you can drive the whole bike out of the corner on one wheel. You can tell by the chain  and rear suspension that I'm driving out a nice clip.



Now on this one I'm starting to transition for the next corner.I'm starting to stand the bike up and Desmolu is getting ready to follow me, but she doesn't move until I start doing it. You have to be really adamant about the fact that your pillion moves with you and not before you. It can turn really if he/she moves before you and you end up overshooting.





Note: Except for the first one, the pictures were all taken on the same corner by two photographers with slightly different vantage points.


And that's about it. Not much to it, really.

Have fun!

/ I might be completely wrong in everything I said, these are just my observations from doing it on my own.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 08:37:19 AM by El Matador » Logged

WarrenJ
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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2010, 11:40:07 AM »

Great Post!  I have wanted to start riding two up with my wife and this gives some good starting points.  Thanks!
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2010, 12:29:05 PM »

Dive like an Italian soccer player  laughingdp laughingdp laughingdp

My most frequent pillion trusts me - that's key!
She understands the looking thing and does it well.

We don't hang off much though - properly sprung our bikes can lean more than enough without it being necessary.
My experience has been that me keeping my body low and her head/torso slightly inboard is all it takes. I'm saying this as a comment to your pictures, in which it looks like you're hanging off without really needing to.
Don't get me wrong, it's a good technique to master, but not always a requirement for a fun ride.

A very big +1 on pillion NOT moving until the rider does.

Good write up and cool pictures waytogo
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El Matador
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2010, 12:51:19 PM »

Dive like an Italian soccer player  laughingdp laughingdp laughingdp


We don't hang off much though - properly sprung our bikes can lean more than enough without it being necessary.
My experience has been that me keeping my body low and her head/torso slightly inboard is all it takes. I'm saying this as a comment to your pictures, in which it looks like you're hanging off without really needing to.
Don't get me wrong, it's a good technique to master, but not always a requirement for a fun ride.

Good write up and cool pictures waytogo

Thanks, we have different riding styles you and I. I like to hang off more to ensure I have more flexibility to lean the bike if I have to later in the turn. I find it a lot safer to add more lean mid turn than to hang off more. Having to switch up your body position while in the turn can be very unsettling for your suspension. I also do a lot of track days and translate my riding style to the street.
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somegirl
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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2010, 04:09:29 PM »

Thanks for the pictorial, you guys look great. waytogo applause

I would like to add though that this riding style is not suitable for someone just learning to take a passenger, or a new pillion.

We do have a FAQ on riding two-up which is suitable for someone starting to take a passenger.

Once you both get comfy with that, then try out the tips from El Matador.
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El Matador
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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2010, 06:06:28 PM »

+11Tyb, that goes without saying MsInc. I would not reccomend anyone who is not already an advanced rider to try this, much less someone who hasn't ridden with a pillion before. That's why I started a new thread, I didn't want this to go with the regular 2up thread in case someone got the wrong idea. Cheesy
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Spidey
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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2010, 07:03:16 AM »

You two are gettin' there.   laughingdp

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El Matador
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2010, 07:12:07 AM »

You two are gettin' there.   laughingdp



HO-LEE-SHIIIYAT
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2010, 05:18:14 PM »

El Matador, fantastic job! 
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pennyrobber
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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2010, 05:34:02 PM »

Nice write up. I have always wanted to be able to ride spiritedly in the twisties with the misses. It isn't that she is a bad pillion, it's more that I lack the confidence. I really wish she could experience the fun I have when riding alone and how good it feels to get a corner right.
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El Matador
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« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2010, 08:20:08 AM »

El Matador, fantastic job! 
Nice write up. I have always wanted to be able to ride spiritedly in the twisties with the misses. It isn't that she is a bad pillion, it's more that I lack the confidence. I really wish she could experience the fun I have when riding alone and how good it feels to get a corner right.

Thanks guys  waytogo

Penny, A lot of it might be due to the drastic suspension change. I'm willing to wager that if you adjust the preload you would get much more confidence instantly.
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koko64
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2010, 06:32:13 PM »

Good write up and pics. Nice breakdown on technique. applause
Wife loves riding with me. I try and take her when it's good road conditions, especially traffic volume wise. The where and when is really important.
I ride even more defensively with the precious cargo on the back. It's all about managing the odds to an acceptable level.
It's a great shared experience.
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2010, 04:21:11 AM »

Nice writeup, J. So when are you gonna post a supplement on how to drag the pillion's knee?  Evil
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El Matador
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2010, 09:49:17 AM »

Nice writeup, J. So when are you gonna post a supplement on how to drag the pillion's knee?  Evil

 laughingdp laughingdp laughingdp

I'd need access to a bike whose of epic badass proportions again  Wink

How Fenix? she feeling better?

When are YOU coming down?
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Hellraising-vtec
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« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2011, 11:06:13 AM »

good thread
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