Budget levers....what do you think??

[Artful]

I bet their free hats are made in southeast Asia.

[booger]

LOL I'd been reading too much NYT and drinking too much coffee. Bob Herbert for President.
Notice I said buy American whenever possible. I did know Ducs were made in Italy, thanks for pointing that one out. There's no American substitute for a Ducati, so nothing can be done there. However if we don't start supporting the US manufacturing base, or whatever's left of it in any and every small or large way possible...like I said I hate to be the guy. I don't drive American cars so I suppose I'm a bit of a hypocrite, but I'm worried. Chinese stuff is getting better and better. The economy in this country is getting worse. 

[Triple J]

Keep the hat and be somewhat competitive in price. 

Unless CRG has their levers made in China, they can't be competitive with Chinese knock-offs of their product. That's just how it is. Buy what you want, it's your money, but that should be understood.

Personally, I'll spend some extra money to support a company that supports the moto industry and develops new products...as opposed to one that just makes copies (even if they are good) of other people's work. Who steps in to fill the void if CRG, Speedymoto, etc. go under? Surely not the Chinese company.

[ducatiz]

Who steps in to fill the void if CRG, Speedymoto, etc. go under? Surely not the Chinese company.

Just like those companies have come, there were companies before them that went.  I totally agree that buying American is a great idea, but when it the quality difference is negligible OR the price is 5-10x to buy the domestic version, the rationale quickly dies.

I bought a $40 electric impact hammer from Harbor Freight.  The same thing from Matco or similar is about 350-400 bucks.  So far, I have 7 years on that tool and if it dies today, I'll go buy another one for $40 and still be ahead of the curve.  I would have to live to 150 years old for it to make sense to buy the American-made version.

Likewise, the levers.  I don't know about you guys, but levers are generally disposable items, especially when you lay the bike down.  I don't plan to lay mine down, but I'd much rather have a $40 part to replace than a $200 one.  Moreover, I just don't see the qualitative difference in any of these Chinese made versus the CRG, etc. 

One of my school friends (from college ages ago) now runs a company that does custom metal molds and CNC cuts.  Anything like these levers can be made in volume such that the per-item price drops to very little.  He makes runs as small as 5000 for a huge number of companies.  I showed him a rearset a while back and he said he could make a copy of it for around 100-150 bucks for 5000 of them.  Add another 50 each for the coating.  I've thought about setting up shop using him as my manufacturer.  Sell them out of my garage for $300-400. 

The whole "buy American no matter the cost" is part of the reason GM was paying assembly-line workers $40 to screw in a door handle or to put a door on a frame when European companies are paying 10-15/hr for the same job, and Chinese are paying 2-5/hour for the same job.  And that's why GM & Chrysler went into the shitcan.

Competition is competitive.  I think people forget that.

[booger]

Can't help thinking that Chinese stuff is an opiate, and you better watch out lest you become addicted. So when we no longer make anything in this country, and we're almost there, we will no longer have leverage enough to enjoy the lowered cost of Chinese goods. At that point the prices will go way up, but hey maybe that will be the straw that breaks the camel's back and it will again make sense to manufacture and buy American products. I'm no flag-waver but this is my home. I have nowhere else to go(except maybe England since I'm a dual citizen but the taxes are insane so nope). Whether or not I like you, I don't want your children and grandchildren to live in abject poverty. We can't all work in the service sector. Buy whatcha want. Artful, the hats are made in China for sure, but embroidered in USA. I'd bet money on it.
Ducatiz, you got lucky with that Harbor Fright tool. I've gone through so many shitty Fright 'Chicago Electric' power tools(weak ill-fitting steel hand tools too) I can't even count them. Only when I manned up and started buying Milwaukee(FTW) did the madness stop. There really isn't anything better than a quality American made tool. Makes your balls feel bigger.
The CRGs are better, and to me they are worth the extra. I know I got mine from the original source, and I didn't even get a free Chinese made hat. If you look closely you will recognize the difference, however the Chinese levers look to be good quality. Are they type III hard-ano'ed? Only time will tell. The devil is in the details. That black ano likes to turn purple but maybe that's a good thing. I'm a Prince fan.

[ducatiz]

Basically, you just described the history of GM during the 1940s thru the 1980s.

1940s--  good quality cars (for the era), relatively low cost.  Workers paid well, but not crazy salaries or benefits.

1980s --  SHIT cars, SHIT quality, so overpriced, the US was charging a $5000 tariff PER car coming from Japan, and Toyota and Datsun STILL managed to surpass them.

Think about that:  US government had to slap a $5000/tax per car on those Toyotas in the 80s. 

Yes, we got used to the opiate, but it was American manufacturers doing it and had their lunch eaten by tiny Japan.

And no, I buy pretty much all of my tools (well, the air and electric ones) at Harbor Freight, I've been on their mailing list for 11 years now.  Had one go bad, and I took it to the store and they replaced it free. 

[booger]

LOL you must use your tools to bake cookies then. Kidding!

I completely agree about American companies becoming complacent and pricing themselves out of competition whilst simultaneously delivering inferior quality. That shit pisses me off. It's arrogant and dishonorable, moreover we are finding out it's destructive to the overall well-being of everybody here. It's a cultural problem really, and my hope is that young folks now, who are smarter than ever by the way, will not tolerate it any longer and show their parents the error of their ways. This thread has become political so no matter what you say I ain't postin' no more.

[ducatiz]

I treat my tools like shit, unfortunately.  That $40 impact wrench has actually been underwater when my old garage flooded.

And it was both the companies and the workers pricing themselves out.  No one thought things could/would change, forgetting that they always do.  If you are making $40 putting a door handle on cars, then enjoy it, but learn to live like you're making $10/hour cause that's what the job is really worth.

[stopintime]

...............

  I would have to live to 150 years old for it to make sense to buy the American-made version.
...................

That's how DucPainter has become financially well off

Bergdoerfer: you're describing natural economical fluctuations. It's only human to react as you do when adjustments are forced upon you - not a good feeling, but if anything is certain - the USA will turn it around soon(ish)  

[Triple J]

Just like those companies have come, there were companies before them that went.  

One of my school friends (from college ages ago) now runs a company that does custom metal molds and CNC cuts.  Anything like these levers can be made in volume such that the per-item price drops to very little.  He makes runs as small as 5000 for a huge number of companies.  I showed him a rearset a while back and he said he could make a copy of it for around 100-150 bucks for 5000 of them.  Add another 50 each for the coating.  I've thought about setting up shop using him as my manufacturer.  Sell them out of my garage for $300-400.  

Who has stepped in to fill Cycle Cat's role? No one that I'm aware of. At some point it isn't cost effective for someone to step in to fill the void...so no one will.

Sure your buddy can make 5,000 copies...but can he sell 5,000 copies? Probably not when your talking about things such as levers and rearsets, which are different for almost every motorcycle...especially when they're made for a relatively low sales volume motorcycle such as Ducati.

Tools are different. There's likely a much larger customer base.

I never said the Chinese moto parts weren't good quality. Their labor rates make it possible for them to sell at a much lower price though.

I just paid +/- $125 more for a pair of Daytona moto boots from Helimot than if I would have ordered them direct from Germany. I was willing to do that because the customer service at Helimot was top notch. Helmut took the time to make sure I was getting exactly what I wanted, and that they fit correctly...he even let me (actually insisted) try on his personal pair so I'd get a feel for what a broken in boot would feel like. Customer service like that is worth the price to make sure they're always around. Same goes for CRG, Speedymoto, etc. Have a problem...give them a call. I doubt you can do that with a Chinese producer who just pumps out parts, and likely doesn't even know what your motorcycle looks like.

To each his own though.

[Raux]

plus when he says makes 5000 copies at 100-150 each... that means an upfront commitment to 1/2 million to 3/4 million dollars in production costs. don't know about you, no garage startup is going to have that kind of capital.

[ducatiz]

plus when he says makes 5000 copies at 100-150 each... that means an upfront commitment to 1/2 million to 3/4 million dollars in production costs. don't know about you, no garage startup is going to have that kind of capital.

nope.  he's got the machinery and 3d laser scanners.  the whole 9 yards, that price is actual cost to make them.  or do you mean for someone else?

it's a matter of time and interest for me. 

the problem i see is that many of these places are not smart business types.  why on earth would you buy this machinery?  there are literally hundreds of companies, of all sizes, that do this work.  if you just google CNC machining services, there are a gajillion that pop up.  you just have to find one that can do the laser scanning to make a copy and then fix it.

Pinetree Castings is the largest casting firm in the US (or in the top 2-3 now).. If you wanted to do cast alu levers, it would be even cheaper.  just have to have a painted finish.

[Raux]

no that's my point.

Your friend said he could produce a product at 100-150 each for a volume purchase of 5000 copies.

so you are committing to buying 5000 copies at that cost... then you resell those items obviously at a higher cost.

even with a 100% market you have to sell 2500 to break even on the initial investment of 1/2 to 3/4 million dollars.

5000 x $100 or $500,000 that's just production costs
then add in warehousing, shipments of the 5000 units to the warehouse, packaging, manpower etc.  then you start to see where the real cost of volume production is.

CRG is probably working on a smaller scale, say 500-1000 count production run. but for multiple products. That's a LOT of upfront material costs...
all waiting for a sale to happen.

China/Taiwan can probably do it cheaper for many reason not just manpower.
Raw materials are probably cheaper, hell their Ti is crazy cheap compared to what it costs in the US/Europe.
Volume, not only are they selling directly, I would go so far as to say they are producing for numerous 'aftermarket' sellers and OEMs.  Asia is a HUGE 2-wheel market, and they have a lot of bikes we know nothing about.
Factory direct. of course factory direct will always be cheaper than a distributor, less shipping costs, no additional market, etc.

[ducatiz]

Ah gotcha.  I crunched it all before and that's why I didn't bother.  I'm not a retailer.  Still, it seems one of the retailers could do the same thing with a common design and get the same or better piece points.  My friends co does medical hardware and I would bet someone else with less sophisticated setup could do it cheaper.

[mojo]

You can also look at just about any recently made Snap-On power tool and the label will say, "Assembled in USA with global parts".  I've even seen some of the Mac hand tools that are made in China.  They are still very nice tools, and have the same warranty.
The only bad thing is they don't give you a break on the price even if they are made in China.