The PCV with Autotune thread......

[ungeheuer]

Does the autotune feature look for a set of user defined parameters?

Yes.  Its just as Raux said.

What I would like to know is... does that now mean you can grab that new map. save it. pull the Autotune and o2 sensors it has. and use the new map it created or does it erase the map when you remove it?

Once Autotune has reached the point where its on-the-fly adjustments are so small as to be of no further great relevance, then yes you can save that map (in reality, you'd be saving each of its trim mappings to your base PCV map to create a new - more accurate base map - until such time as the trim variations are so small as to be of no further use).  Once you have accepted all the Autotune trimming to your base map to create that final map which will no longer benefit from any more adjustment then sure, you save it and could at that point pull the Autotune+wideband sensors and run from that point on with that as a static PCV map.

Thanks for that link - good reading indeed  

This from Dynojet is quite useful too >>  

Cycleword review here >> http://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle_news/product_reviews_articles/archive/product_evaluation_dynojet_auto_tune_wideband_o2_controller

[Raux]

why not just work something like this. and then adjust according to experience
check the plugs for fouling, etc.
this breaks it down into from full throttle wanting best power to lighter throttle wanting less in cruising but more at high rpms
disclaimer. this is just me using excel. this is not a tested or actual autotune table.

   0   2   5   10   15   20   40   60   80   100
500   14.7   14.7   14.7   14.4   14   14   13.6   12.8   12.8   12.4
750   14.7   14.7   14.7   14.4   14   14   13.6   12.8   12.8   12.4
1000   14.7   14.7   14.4   14.4   14   14   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.4
1250   14.7   14.4   14.4   14.4   14   13.6   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.4
1500   14.4   14.4   14.4   14   14   13.6   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.4
1750   14.4   14.4   14   14   14   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.4   12.4
2000   14   14   14   14   14   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.4   12
2250   14   14   14   14   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12
2500   14   14   14   13.6   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12
2750   14   14   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12
3000   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12
3250   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12
3500   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12
3750   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12
4000   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12
4250   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12   12
4500   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12   12
4750   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12   12
5000   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12   12
5250   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12   12
5500   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12   12
5750   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.4   12   12
6000   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.4   12.4   12   12
6250   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.4   12.4   12   12
6500   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.4   12.4   12   12
6750   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.4   12.4   12   12   12
7000   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.4   12.4   12   12   12
7250   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12   12   12
7500   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12   12   12
7750   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12   12   12
8000   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12   12   12   12
8250   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12   12   12   12
8500   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12   12   12   12
8750   12.4   12.4   12.4   12   12   12   12   12   12   12
9000   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12
9250   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12
9500   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12
9750   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12
10000   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12
10250   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12
10500   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12

[ungeheuer]

WOW Raux - you been busy 

Indeed I will work with something like that..... 

Point I'm wondering is this:  If I'm doing not much more than guessing what AFRs to set at what throttle %/rpms.... for Autotune to adjust and "tune" the PCV mapping.....  then whats the point of this Autotune thing?  I may as well just instead guess what values to enter into the PCV's mapping directly.....?? 

[Raux]

not really

at least with the autotune you can get predictable power/fuel efficiency

with the pc v only. you are only guessing that you are hitting the power afr or FE afr

or think about it this way.
let's say you are making a commuter bike
hit 14.7 afr across the board.
or a race bike.
12.8 across the board.
what we are trying to do is creat a map that is a generic 'road' map.
as you get into setting up your gears you'll be able to further tweak it.
it think about city traffic. you're typically in 2nd gear. no shifting so you will want useable power with good fuel economy say 13.6

but your fav road you find yourself shifting through the 4-5-6 gears on the high revs... so you want the lower 12 range. fuel economy be damned

[Raux]

as you ride more with the newer map. your butt dyno will tell you.. well i'm not getting enough power on the highway for passing.
so take note of the rpm/gear/throttle combo you are using and adjust yoru AFR down in those regions. basically shifting your chart around.
the unit corrects for the new feel you want.

if you had a dyno. you would do the same thing. The dyno would kick out your afr map and the idea would be to smooth it out, giving you a smoother tq curve and more useable power.
the autotune skips that. YOU create the smooth AFR curve. the pc adjusts the fueling to match. so your smooth tq curve is easier to build.

[ungeheuer]

Yeah - just going thru the doubting phase right now 

Since I dont yet have the thing to actually play with .... there can be no lightbulb moments.... So instead I think myself around in circles.... 

So anyway......  your interest and input is encouraging, thanks  .

[loopsrider]

I see you guys are discussing the possibility of creating a MAP and then ditching the Autotune and running just the PC V with the MAP created...



One mportant point in keeping the Autotune installed is that with future engine mods the Autotune will adjust fuel trim accordingly. For me that's a bonus as I'm running cored cans but will be putting on a set of SC project GP-EVO silencers over the winter... maybe even cams after I do some research....and then...and then.....

[loopsrider]

yes, it has a chart just like the PC V.
but instead of fuel percentages. it is looking for AFR. it then sends a signal to the PC V to adjust the map fuel percentages to match that target AFR.
It will continue to adjust until it has reached all throttle position/rpm combinations from what I understand. After that it stops adjusting.
What I would like to know is... does that now mean you can grab that new map. save it. pull the Autotune and o2 sensors it has. and use the new map it created.
or does it erase the map when you remove it?

I have to question this part of the conversation. The Autotune should work with the PC V and keep adjusting for different riding characteristics, temps, etc...etc.....even right down to a dirty air filter...no??

[ungeheuer]

I see you guys are discussing the possibility of creating a MAP and then ditching the Autotune and running just the PC V with the MAP created...

One mportant point in keeping the Autotune installed is that with future engine mods the Autotune will adjust fuel trim accordingly. For me that's a bonus as I'm running cored cans but will be putting on a set of SC project GP-EVO silencers over the winter... maybe even cams after I do some research....and then...and then.....

You're right.  But we're just discussing that it is possible - which it is.  Is it desirable?  Well, I intend to leave mine in place to continue its monitoring even though its adjustments once the "final trim" is accepted will be minimal.

I have to question this part of the conversation. The Autotune should work with the PC V and keep adjusting for different riding characteristics, temps, etc...etc.....even right down to a dirty air filter...no??

You're right again.  To be precise "After that it stops adjusting" should really read: "Unless there are further changes to the engine's fuelling hardware..... then... after that it stops adjusting significantly"

[Raux]

yeah i can see if things significantly change there would be a need for the Autotune to be a part of the system.

for example, changing exhausts, changing to a freeflow airfilter or changing gearing

but i doubt a dirty filter would affect that much.

and slight temp changes would mean that the bike is constantly searching for the best map from morning to night. but apparently you can install a switch to avoid this type of behavior.

i suppose it wouldn't hurt to keep it on, but i  doubt it would constantly make a difference unless you did major changes

also, just read that the maps from Dynojet include an Autotune map. so, Ungeheuer, if you grab one of the DP Euro maps, it might be a good place to start.

[ungeheuer]

Many maps from Dynojet do include Autotune tables, you're right.   But the only map they have for M1100 doesn't.  

For interest I downloaded one of the 696 maps which does come with an Autotune table.... but...  all the entered values are "13" and there are no values at all in the stock closed loop area (not surprisingly), so not so enlightening.  Harley maps all seem to have detailed Autotune tables included though.... Grrrr...  

So.... after a little homework... & working with the knowledge that the stock closed loop o2 sensors running the PCV "optimizers" aim for 13.6 in the stock closed loop area, combined with Dynojet's documentation which clearly defines the stock closed loop area within their overall AFR table.... I came up with this as my draft AFR table >>

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8GYk44zAjpmMTdjYzAyZWItZjZkNy00ZGJhLWIzYTEtZTMwM2I1MmY4MDRl&sort=name&layout=list&num=50

<< Comments welcome  

[Raux]

I'm thinking that closer to a smooth AFR curve then the stuff I saw from them on the 2 maps you can download.
WHICH neither is the DP ECU euro maps   I emailed them to get those.

I can't wait to see that that is like on the Dyno, Ungeheuer

[ungeheuer]

Who knows?  Clearly there are values there which are almost totally meaningless.....  

eg: 13.0:1 AFR @ 2% throttle/9500RPM.

But really, when is it ever gonna be spinning 9500RPM with only 2% throttle rolled on?  So at the "extremes" it seems to me that predefining AFR %s is somewhat pointless.....

Trouble with jumping in the Deep End is that you gotta quickly learn to swim... lol...

[Nxtr6]

Way Cool... Subscribing...

V/R,
Nick

[loopsrider]

Who knows?  Clearly there are values there which are almost totally meaningless.....  

eg: 13.0:1 AFR @ 2% throttle/9500RPM.

But really, when is it ever gonna be spinning 9500RPM with only 2% throttle rolled on?  So at the "extremes" it seems to me that predefining AFR %s is somewhat pointless.....

Trouble with jumping in the Deep End is that you gotta quickly learn to swim... lol...

You edited out your dyno theory ya bugger! I was going to say that it would require a heck of a long time on a dyno to target your A/F ratios using the Autotune...especially since it can allow for different A/F ratios for each gear.  I'm not even sure if that would be possible even with a somewhat close dyno generated fuel map. From what I understand it takes a bit of riding to get the Autotune working closely with the PC V.

An interesting discussion on the Autotune that I came across....

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/52266-just-installed-power-commander-5-on-my-06/