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EPA Expected to approve E15 gas

Started by Slide Panda, October 13, 2010, 07:39:17 AM

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ducatiz

#30
October 14, 2010, 07:43:56 AM Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 07:51:38 AM by ducatiz
Quote from: 77south on October 14, 2010, 05:54:23 AM
Those studies are decades old.  Modern ethanol processes are net energy producers.  How much energy varies by process and feedstock, corn being one of the least efficient.  Sugar cane on the other hand is fantastic.  There are promising processes being developed in producing cellulosic ethanol (using the entire plant not just the corn kernel for instance) and ethanol from algae that could change the ethanol game completely and reduce production costs and boost efficiency by large amounts. 
Corn ethanol wouldn't be as popular as it is if it weren't for big agribusiness like Archer Daniels Midland and Monsanto pushing for subsidies.  So yeah its all about the money, and (surprise surprise) not really about the environment. 
I guess the American thing to do would be to go into business making aftermarket fuel system components that can handle ethanol and make this problem make us rich.

even if all of that is true, it still remains that ethanol is a crappy fuel source for internal combustion engines (ICE).  among liquid fuels, it has nearly the lowest energy per cc..

at a time when the gov is considering increasing MPG requirements for cars, switching to more ethanol is a bad idea.

and never mind the fact that so far, introducing ethanol/E10/gasohol has just destroyed engines and gas tanks in the USA. 

I guess someone wanted to get rid of all the old cars and bikes -- now they did it.
Check out my oil filter forensics thread!                     Offended? Click here
"Yelling out of cars, turning your speakers out the window to blast your music onto the street, setting off M-80 firecrackers, firing automatic weapons into the airâ€"these are all well and good. But none of them create a merry atmosphere of insouciance and bonhomie quite like a revving motorcycle.

sbrguy

#31
October 14, 2010, 07:56:20 AM
exactly the real money now is in developing aftermarket add ons and parts to counteract the ethanol, do that for a cheaper price or something like an "in line fuel filter" type of thing or something that would be an easy fix and you my friend have just become a billiionare.

ducatiz

#32
October 14, 2010, 08:04:53 AM
One thing that >blows< my mind is the ethanol industry has been trying to get diesel to be polluted/enriched with ethanol as well.  Yes, it can be done and yes, it works for the most part.

However, given ethanol's hydrophilic nature AND the fact that all alcohols are solvents, putting it in your diesel engine would be idiocy.  Diesel injectors on any vehicle will simply die if there is too much water moisture in the fuel and part of the advantage of diesel is that the fuel is a lubricant, not a solvent (part of why diesel engines last a million years and oil changes are 2-5x the duration of gasoline engines). 

I am fine with 100% ethanol being sold as a fuel, I have been to brasil and they have cars running it which are doing just fine.  I can't see why we can't just sell ethanol-only cars alongside gasoline cars and let the consumer decide.

Seems to me it would be a great opportunity for the car companies, given the small modifications needed on a gasoline engine.

Check out my oil filter forensics thread!                     Offended? Click here
"Yelling out of cars, turning your speakers out the window to blast your music onto the street, setting off M-80 firecrackers, firing automatic weapons into the airâ€"these are all well and good. But none of them create a merry atmosphere of insouciance and bonhomie quite like a revving motorcycle.

ducpainter

#33
October 14, 2010, 08:18:03 AM
Quote from: ducatiz on October 14, 2010, 08:04:53 AM
One thing that >blows< my mind is the ethanol industry has been trying to get diesel to be polluted/enriched with ethanol as well.  Yes, it can be done and yes, it works for the most part.

However, given ethanol's hydrophilic nature AND the fact that all alcohols are solvents, putting it in your diesel engine would be idiocy.  Diesel injectors on any vehicle will simply die if there is too much water moisture in the fuel and part of the advantage of diesel is that the fuel is a lubricant, not a solvent (part of why diesel engines last a million years and oil changes are 2-5x the duration of gasoline engines). 

I am fine with 100% ethanol being sold as a fuel, I have been to brasil and they have cars running it which are doing just fine.  I can't see why we can't just sell ethanol-only cars alongside gasoline cars and let the consumer decide.

Seems to me it would be a great opportunity for the car companies, given the small modifications needed on a gasoline engine.


Much of the lubricity of diesel fuel has been lost due to the removal of most of the sulphur.

On older diesel engines with rotary style pumps an additive is recommended to increase the lubricating properties of the fuel to prior levels.
"Once you accept that a child on the autistic spectrum experiences the world in
 a completely different way than you, you will be open to understand how that
 perspective
    is even more amazing than yours."
    To realize the value of nine  months:
    Ask a mother who gave birth to a stillborn.
"Don't piss off old people The older we get, the less 'Life in Prison' is a deterrent."


Bill in OKC

#34
October 14, 2010, 08:35:37 AM
The EPA spends a lot of time to make sure fuel vapor does not escape from fuel systems, you would think that raw gas leaking out on the ground and into lakes would be a concern for them.  If they mandate ethanol then free markets and freedom of choice seem like hollow words.  Sen. Jim Inhofe is working on a bill to exempt Oklahoma from a Federal ethanol mandate.  I think it goes like - oil is produced in Oklahoma, gas is refined in Oklahoma, there is no interstate commerce involved so the Feds shouldn't have any say in the matter.  I hope he is successful.  I've read of new-ish cars developing fuel leaks from warped fittings - and like our tanks (originally) it is said to not be an ethanol problem.  I can see a lot of Sta-bil being burned in my vehicles in the future.  I wonder what a case of that stuff costs -
'07 S4Rs  '02 RSVR  '75 GT550  '13 FXSB  '74 H1E  '71 CB750

MotoCreations

#35
October 14, 2010, 08:52:19 AM
Quote from: corey on October 13, 2010, 01:33:46 PM
looks like that $2500 aluminum tank is closer in my future than i thought...

I hate to tell you this, but even aluminum fuel tanks are showing problems long run with ethanol exposure.  But it will take many many years for the problems to show. 

Almost all of the old Ferrari / Alfa and vintage racecars with aluminum fuel tanks at the shop are showing etching due to the new fuels.  Ditto for some vintage motorcycles with aluminum tanks with fuel stored in them.

I can almost see the day upcoming we will have to treat "gasoline" like we do alcohol or methanol fuel -- drain the tanks when the vehicle isn't in use to prevent corrosion problems to tank, fuel lines and other fuel based systems. 

Also those with carbies -- you don't want to see what this new gasoline does to the small parts inside the carb that weren't designed for these chemicals.  New fuelies don't have as bad a problem due to newer manufacturing materials used within.

nicrosato

#36
October 14, 2010, 10:49:31 AM Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 10:34:54 AM by nicrosato
QuoteAlso those with carbies -- you don't want to see what this new gasoline does to the small parts inside the carb that weren't designed for these chemicals.  New fuelies don't have as bad a problem due to newer manufacturing materials used within.

Yes, this is a real issue, too. I know the Yamaha outboard on my old sailboat has had frequent carb fouling problems and the mechanic feels is directly attributable to the ethanol in the fuel. I fear for my '97 M900's carbs.
Nobody said that I did. Everyone says that I would.

corey

#37
October 14, 2010, 03:48:16 PM
Quote from: muskrat on October 14, 2010, 07:24:42 AM
have a friend who managed an ethanol plant in KS.  you wouldn't believe the problems and costs.  funny thing is they couldn't transport the stuff to refineries because they needed a liquor license/permit.... [clap]

what a racket.
When all the land lays in ruin... And burnination has forsaken the countryside... Only one guy will remain... My money's on...

10/10ths

#38
October 14, 2010, 05:57:37 PM
Vote early and vote often.






[bang]
"it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast, than a fast bike slow."

Rare, 1 of 400, 1997 Monster 750, Suzuki DL650 V-Strom, '04 Honda RC51

10/10ths

#39
October 14, 2010, 05:59:26 PM Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 06:01:44 PM by 10/10ths
Oh, and another thing...............Thank you, Frosty, for my awesome, shiny, POR-15 coated, steel tank.




[beer]
[drink]
[clap]
[bow_down]
[moto]
"it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast, than a fast bike slow."

Rare, 1 of 400, 1997 Monster 750, Suzuki DL650 V-Strom, '04 Honda RC51

ducpainter

#40
October 14, 2010, 06:13:35 PM
Quote from: 10/10ths on October 14, 2010, 05:59:26 PM
Oh, and another thing...............Thank you, Frosty, for my awesome, shiny, POR-15 coated, steel tank.




[beer]
[drink]
[clap]
[bow_down]
[moto]
You're welcome...

maybe we'll get lucky and the ethanol won't eat the rest of the fuel system. ;)
"Once you accept that a child on the autistic spectrum experiences the world in
 a completely different way than you, you will be open to understand how that
 perspective
    is even more amazing than yours."
    To realize the value of nine  months:
    Ask a mother who gave birth to a stillborn.
"Don't piss off old people The older we get, the less 'Life in Prison' is a deterrent."


ducatiz

#41
October 14, 2010, 06:25:59 PM
Quote from: humorless dp on October 14, 2010, 08:18:03 AM
Much of the lubricity of diesel fuel has been lost due to the removal of most of the sulphur.

On older diesel engines with rotary style pumps an additive is recommended to increase the lubricating properties of the fuel to prior levels.

Some of the lubricative properties are gone, but diesel is naturally a light lube, not a solvent.  I've been following fleet owners' issues with diesel engines and very few have had problems with ULSD.

The big problem has been with biodiesel blends above 5% due to the higher solvent content of biodiesel.
Check out my oil filter forensics thread!                     Offended? Click here
"Yelling out of cars, turning your speakers out the window to blast your music onto the street, setting off M-80 firecrackers, firing automatic weapons into the airâ€"these are all well and good. But none of them create a merry atmosphere of insouciance and bonhomie quite like a revving motorcycle.

ducpainter

#42
October 14, 2010, 06:38:23 PM
Quote from: ducatiz on October 14, 2010, 06:25:59 PM
Some of the lubricative properties are gone, but diesel is naturally a light lube, not a solvent.  I've been following fleet owners' issues with diesel engines and very few have had problems with ULSD.

The big problem has been with biodiesel blends above 5% due to the higher solvent content of biodiesel.
That's true about diesel.

Most fleet owners run newer rigs with modern injection systems that aren't affected by the reduced lubricity of low sulphur fuel.

My old tractor has the kind of system that is.

The new bio-diesel just adds to the nightmare.

It will eventually become an issue with home heating oil IMO as those systems use rotary style pumps. I've already had problems with freeze ups at home.
"Once you accept that a child on the autistic spectrum experiences the world in
 a completely different way than you, you will be open to understand how that
 perspective
    is even more amazing than yours."
    To realize the value of nine  months:
    Ask a mother who gave birth to a stillborn.
"Don't piss off old people The older we get, the less 'Life in Prison' is a deterrent."


ducatiz

#43
October 14, 2010, 07:01:37 PM
Quote from: humorless dp on October 14, 2010, 06:38:23 PM
That's true about diesel.

Most fleet owners run newer rigs with modern injection systems that aren't affected by the reduced lubricity of low sulphur fuel.

My old tractor has the kind of system that is.

The new bio-diesel just adds to the nightmare.

It will eventually become an issue with home heating oil IMO as those systems use rotary style pumps. I've already had problems with freeze ups at home.

Why the hell are you running road diesel then?  You can still buy off-road dyed stuff for that tractor and your home use.  I saw pumps near Luray this weekend with off-road diesel for $2.39/gallon!!!!  sheesh, i filled up my TDI, it ran awesome all the way home...
Check out my oil filter forensics thread!                     Offended? Click here
"Yelling out of cars, turning your speakers out the window to blast your music onto the street, setting off M-80 firecrackers, firing automatic weapons into the airâ€"these are all well and good. But none of them create a merry atmosphere of insouciance and bonhomie quite like a revving motorcycle.

ducpainter

#44
October 14, 2010, 07:08:00 PM
Quote from: ducatiz on October 14, 2010, 07:01:37 PM
Why the hell are you running road diesel then?  You can still buy off-road dyed stuff for that tractor and your home use.  I saw pumps near Luray this weekend with off-road diesel for $2.39/gallon!!!!  sheesh, i filled up my TDI, it ran awesome all the way home...
Simple availability...and the fact I run the tractor to occasional mowing/tilling jobs.

My tractor has a glass sediment bowl that makes it easy to see the dye color. It isn't worth the fine, and the local constabulary has nothing better to do than break balls.

Don't get caught with that stuff in your tank on the road. ;)
"Once you accept that a child on the autistic spectrum experiences the world in
 a completely different way than you, you will be open to understand how that
 perspective
    is even more amazing than yours."
    To realize the value of nine  months:
    Ask a mother who gave birth to a stillborn.
"Don't piss off old people The older we get, the less 'Life in Prison' is a deterrent."


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