anyone use phazer 3000 ethanol treatment

[Scissors]

At 60 degrees fahrenheit a 10% ethanol blend can absorb up to 0.5% of its volume in water before it begins to phase separate.  That's just under four teaspoons of water per gallon of fuel, or just under a third of a cup of water in four gallons of fuel.

At 60 degrees fahrenheit "pure" gasoline can only absorb up to 0.02% of its volume in water.  Anything beyond that will phase separate.  So with regular gasoline you get phase separation earlier but, because it occurs earlier, you get a lot less of it sitting at the bottom of your tank when it happens.

As long as the water remains in solution with your fuel, there are no problems other than slighly lower fuel economy.  That is, if the fuel tank were made of a substance which doesn't absorb water (in our case, it also causes the tank to expand).

Water that's phase separated, on the other hand, can cause other issues.  With regular gasoline, at worst, it'll stall your engine if enough water gets sucked up by the pump.  Mixed with ethanol, however, the water/ethanol solution can combust, but will result in a very lean mixture, higher temps, and possible engine damage.

Here's an excellent paper about the subject:
http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf

Interestingly, when they run the numbers regarding water vapor in the air, it shows just how hard it is for water vapor alone to induce phase separation.  This is what I mentioned earlier when I said that motorcycles, unlike boat, are highly unlikely to experience this.

The primary issue for us is not phase separation.  It is the ethanol enabling the fuel to hold more water in suspension than it otherwise would, and therefore allowing the fuel tank to operate as a desiccant and absorb that water.

Edit:  Side note:  longer vent tubes help to prevent water vapor (moisture in the air) from entering the tank in the first place.  Experienced divers are familiar with a concept called "dead space" which refers to the length of the tube between the lungs and the outside air.  The longer the tube, the less fresh air you draw in every time you breathe.

[BoDiddley]

At 60 degrees fahrenheit a 10% ethanol blend can absorb up to 0.5% of its volume in water before it begins to phase separate.  That's just under four teaspoons of water per gallon of fuel, or just under a third of a cup of water in four gallons of fuel.

A third of a cup in my tank?  WTF!   Your info answered a lot of questions.  Thanks Scissors......

[zarn02]

That was extremely informative.

[sbrguy]

those are some great posts that explain a lot of it.  so we finally have a chemist on board now? scissors you a chemist? if so that is great.

[DoubleEagle]

I own a BMW cage and I got a notice from BMW noting that BMW sells a Fuel System Cleaner that has Techron Technology which will clean the entire fuel system , restores lost fuel economy, cleans and protects fuel gauge sensors and restores lost power and performance.

BMW Fuel System Cleaner Plus with Techron.

If it's good enough to put in my BMW car...it ought to be good enough to put in a motorcycle don't you think ?

Dolph          

[Ddan]

And make sure you only use Shell oil in your Ducati.

[seevtsaab]

I own a BMW cage and I got a notice from BMW noting that BMW sells a Fuel System Cleaner that has Techron Technology which will clean the entire fuel system , restores lost fuel economy, cleans and protects fuel gauge sensors and restores lost power and performance.

BMW Fuel System Cleaner Plus with Techron.

If it's good enough to put in my BMW car...it ought to be good enough to put in a motorcycle don't you think ?
Dolph          

Techron II is good stuff, I wouldn't hesitate to use it in the Duc. However - whatever vehicle you use it in - use it a tankfull or two before an oil change - it's not the best thing to have floating around in your crankcase - you'll get some via blow-by.

[Howie]

And make sure you only use Shell oil in your Ducati.

I pretty much do













Because I get a discount on my credit card

[thought]

And make sure you only use Shell oil in your Ducati.

rotella counts right?

[DoubleEagle]

Techron II is good stuff, I wouldn't hesitate to use it in the Duc. However - whatever vehicle you use it in - use it a tankfull or two before an oil change - it's not the best thing to have floating around in your crankcase - you'll get some via blow-by.

seevtsaab,

Are you saying to only use it in the last 2 tankfulls of gas before you have an oil change ?

Dolph    [moto]

[seevtsaab]

seevtsaab,

Are you saying to only use it in the last 2 tankfulls of gas before you have an oil change ?

Dolph    [moto]

Not as ed-u-micated on the charactersitics of oil wrt moto motor lube.
I speak from my accumilated wisdom wrt auto, particularly Saab Turbo's where oil quality is of
fairly critical importance, and oil is fairly well stressed. Fuel will contaminate your oil, and Techron is pretty harsh on oil. So it's recommended to use it within a couple tankfuls of an oilchange.
Some Saab guys are almost as anal as BMW guys about motor oil.
I haven't seen any evidence of severe degredation via used oil analysis, but, why take a chance?
i have seen boroscope pics of the excellent job TechIi does on carbon deposits, it's the real thing.

[fastwin]

Being a Sta-Bil fuel treatment fan and needing to get another bottle I went to the nearby Pep Boys to stock up. This time I am trying Sta-Bil's Marine Formula/ethanol treatment instead of the regular kind. I was a little shocked initially when I saw the price was $29 for a quart! Regular Sta-Bil is like $12 something/quart. But when I read that a quart can treat 320 gallons it got me more interested. Even using double the standard Sta-Bil dose I would be using less additive for more protection. Right now I going with the double, long term dose of 2 oz./2.5 gallons. Basically 4 oz. in a bike gas tank. The Marine formula "double dose" is only 1 oz. per 5 gallons. And they say it has double the corrosion preventers and 4 times fuel system cleaners, plus it contains a non-alcohol water remover.

I'm going to give it a try. Can't hurt. Here's a page off of Gold Eagle Company's website with FAQ about Sta-Bil products:

http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/faq.aspx#marine_formula

[rideserotta]

I've been using Sta-Bil's Marine Formula since October (i rode through the winter). Seems as though all's well. I'm not sure if it's overkill though since I only use pure premium gas. Im fortunate to have a station that sells gas sans ethanol 2 miles from work and on the way home.

[fastwin]

Lucky for you. Wish I had that gas station near me!! As I've said before, I also use premium plus Sta-Bil and my two plastic tank Ducs have swollen a little but no where as bad as some I have read about. And I have been using the double shot of regular Sta-Bil. Hopefully the Marine Sta-Bil will provide even better results. I have several scooters and farm equipment (at my farm ) that sits for a while. I need some help regardless of the ethanol and crummy gas. If the standard Sta-Bil has done well then hopefully the Marine type will be an improvement.

[pcv57]

With the effects of ethanol wicking up water would apply to the gas while its sitting in the tank underground at our favorite gas station. So how much water is in the gas as we're pumping it into our bikes and cars??? At $3+ per gallon, it kinda pisses me off thinking I'm not getting what I'm paying for.
So if this is true, keeping your tank full doesn't accomplish what we may think.