Aftermarket oil cooler question

[d3vi@nt]

I've been looking at oil coolers for my M695. It seems a main difference between the kits is that one comes with a valve cover with mounts for the cooler, while the other comes with a thin metal plate that appears to be a mounting bracket. I can't really tell how the metal plate is affixed, though. Are there any advantages/disadvantages to one over the other?  Also wondered how hard it is to scavenge all the parts --I've seen coolers and lines on e-bay, but the other bits I'm not so sure where to find.

[elgallo73]

As you are pondering, I had similar questions regarding the coolers with my 2011 696.  I opted not to install one for reasons I'll discuss later.

The oil cooler kit for the 695 appears to be a Setrab/Mocal 8.25 inch 10 row cooler (I could be wrong on the number of rows but it appears 3 inches in height, thus 10 rows).  The parts are EASY to source and AN-6 is the fitting size for your application.  The engine nipples are 14Mx1.5 and are easily found as well.  There is an excellent article written by a Ducati owner at:

http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/upgrades-performance-mods/190920-diy-100-custom-m696-oil-cooler.html

Although this is specific to a 696, it gives you some idea of what can be done.

Here is a link to the H-Comp prototype on a 695:

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=22449.0

Link for coolers and accessories/mounts:

http://www.anplumbing.com/

I would be very wary of using BOTH the engine AND frame for mounting due to torsional stresses during normal operation (I am not a mechanical engineer by trade so no flames, please, and yes, I am aware of the engine being part of the frame).  The stock Ducati cooler for 2011 utilizes the frame for mounting and you could do the same.

If you peruse the boards and use Google, you will find a great deal of information to help your project and save money, which is in short supply for all of us as of late...

I would personally use the frame for mounting but do not see any real issue with engine mounting...

Last, and most importantly, do you really need a cooler?  I do not own a 695 but the engine is likely very similar to my 696 with few, if any, major differences.  Remember, adding a cooler adds complexity and thus gives you additional points of failure, particularly in the area of leaking cooling lines, etc.  In many of the postings I have read, there seems to be a VERY significant misunderstanding about our engines.  Your 695, like mine, is air cooled.  The head temps ARE SUPPOSED to be high.  The oil can be much COOLER than the head temp.  I debated this for a month with my bike, torn between forking out over $400.00 for a cooler or throwing together my own kit for much less.  After much research I discovered I was trying to solve a problem that did not exist for me, and mind you, I live in North Texas, where we have had over 11 straight days of 100+ temps.

The bottom line is with a reasonable quality synthetic oil, you are unlikely to observe a heat related failure with your Monster.  I've read some well written articles which document a 10 - 15 degree reduction in head temperature with a cooler and were backed with numbers (ie, not "the head seemed cooler after installation") but in my case, I could not support the effort and resources necessary to implement a cooler given the slight reduction in head temperatures.

By the way, the only major American air cooled automotive engine effort, the Corvair, experienced head temps around 450 degrees fahrenheit (the turbocharged model could exceed 600 degrees!), and remember, this is before our SUPER DUPER HYPED $13.00 a quart synthetic motorcycle specific oil was available!  Aircraft engines (Lycoming, etc.) consider over 400 degrees NORMAL for the head temperature with a corresponding oil temperature in the low 200's (in fahrenheit).

In my opinion, if the Ducati engineers felt one were necessary, it would have come with a cooler stock...

[d3vi@nt]

elgallo: Thanks for the info and the links. I'll definitely look them over. I understand from other posts in the forums that the 695's have a tendency to run hotter than other models.  Mine has hit 290 with light riding on stretches of county roads and a bit of stop and go --and that's only in 83 degree weather and cooler. Fortunately, it's been cooler here this summer, but I imagine that commuting on an 89 degree afternoon will cause temps to hit 300+, which I don't feel will be healthy over the long run. I am running synthetic oil, but still...

I actually took it to the Ducati dealer here in CO. They said the temp sensor was faulty and replaced it.  I haven't noticed any difference, so either the new one is faulty also, or they were *guessing* it was the sensor.

Some here recommended a new ECU, open airbox and termi's to drop the temps, but that's a serious investment compared to an oil cooler.

Thanks again for the info.

[BK_856er]

Arguments can be made for/against the need for an oil cooler on the 695.  I went through the same process and opted to install the Ducati retrofit kit.  The average running temp will come down, but you will also reduce the magnitude of the "spikes" when you hit a few red lights, etc.  In the first few weeks/months of use my 695 saw temps near 300 with slow riding, but then it seemed to come down after the motor settled in with some miles.  With the current cooler (and other changes) my typical temp is about 220F.  Part of my initial motivation was because of the melting head paint.  Remember that the 695 was allegedly the "highest output per cc" in the Ducati lineup, so the design was pushed pretty hard, and as the entry/budget model steps were taken to keep the price point down.  Also, I believe the 695 temps are OIL temps and not HEAD temps, FWIW.  Whether or not you NEED a cooler on the 695 is up to you, but regardless use a synthetic oil and change it often.

BK

[elgallo73]

One important note: where is the sensor located for your 695?  Mine is located on the vertical cylinder and is thus measuring head temperature.  Mine runs at over 300 degrees with the heat we are experiencing without issue.  290 does not sound bad at all...

Additionally, please note during your research the DIFFERENCE between OIL temperature and HEAD temperature...  Your head temperature can be 320 degrees yet the oil may be 220 degrees!  If 450 degrees is "healthy" for a lycoming engine or a corvair, 300 is not likely a problem at all in your situation.  Your temps look pretty normal to me (if you are observing head temperature)...  I have read of the heat issues (related to a faulty coil design?) for the 695 and would correct that before adding an oil cooler, if it is an issue in your case.

I've seen the recommendations on installing an ECU with airbox mods, pipes, etc. and for me, they seem a waste of time and money...  Some folks seem to like them for the difference in sound, which is fine if you have the cash lying around, but $1,000 for a difference in sound does not a good bargain make, in my opinion...

What CAN lower head temps (and consequently engine temperatures) would be richening the fuel mixture via software in the ECU, which in my understanding is quite lean from the factory.

You may want to look at a map which differs from the factory lean version and can be programmed into your ECU.  The ideal stoichiometric air-fuel ration is 14.7-1 and is somewhat lean in practice.  Ideally, you would dyno your bike and create a custom map which would yield the best fuel-air mixture taking into account a series of environmental parameters, tailored towards lower engine temperatures, a rather expensive and time consuming endeavour in and of itself...

The flipside of this being, "there is no such thing as a free lunch", in other words, richening the mixture can give you unwanted side effects, such as carbon deposits, poor fuel economy, increased emissions, etc...

Interestingly enough, pilots employ exactly this technique to manage air cooled engines in aircraft, utilizing fuel mixture to compensate for cylinder head temperature.  Our bikes (the air cooled ones, anyways) utilize the exact same indicator (cylinder head temperature) as aircraft which employ air cooled engines, the only caveat being that we cannot manually modify our mixture to compensate for heat.  I am not sure if the stock ECU and map utilize CHT (cylinder head temperature) to modify the mixture, maybe an expert here can shed some light on this...  Given that the heat our engines experience is much lower than that of an aircraft, this is not likely a serious issue.

It is my understanding that the lean maps from the factory are employed to comply with stricter emissions standards (as a matter of fact, the European spec models utilize a catalytic converter).  Water cooling has the benefit of maintaining temperatures in the head to much closer range and thus tolerances can be made tighter, thus lending to greater efficiency.

My last street bike was a 1995 Suzuki GSX600F which employed the "SACS" (Suzuki Advanced Cooling System) and utilized an oil cooler.  Water cooling lends additional complexity to our bikes and I wonder why (there must be some reason) some sort of additional oil cooling via greater number of channels in the cylinder head, etc. cannot be employed to achieve similar efficiency (of course water has much better thermal transfer ability than oil) as water cooled bikes...

UPDATE:  Not sure what year your 695 is, but the 2008 695 shows the sensor in the horizontal cylinder head.  This differs enough from my bike (2011 696, sensor located on vertical cylinder) that I am unsure how much of an issue 290 degrees would be (vertical cylinder would likely be much hotter than the horizontal cylinder).  It would appear to measure oil temperature in the head.  A cooler could be a recommended mod in this case, but of course I could be wrong...

[BK_856er]

One important note: where is the sensor located for your 695?  Mine is located on the vertical sensor and is thus measuring head temperature.  Mine runs at over 300 degrees with the heat we are experiencing without issue.  290 does not sound bad at all...
....
UPDATE:  Not sure what year your 695 is, but the 2008 695 shows the sensor in the horizontal cylinder head.  This differs enough from my bike (2011 696, sensor located on vertical cylinder) that I am unsure how much of an issue 290 degrees would be (vertical cylinder would likely be much hotter than the horizontal cylinder).  It would appear to measure oil temperature in the head.  A cooler could be a recommended mod in this case, but of course I could be wrong...

The M695 has three sensors related to the oil.  The oil pressure switch is located on the clutch cover near the fill plug.  This activates the idiot light below a threshold value.  The oil temperature sensor (for the gauge) is located on the sump, as part of the pre-filter, and therefore measures bulk oil temp.  Another temperature sensor is located on the cover of the horizontal cylinder head and this is used for engine management purposes (i.e., ECU input only) and measures oil temperature.  Someone will correct me if I have the two temp sensors reversed!

One other advantage of the Termi kit is that it ditches the oxygen sensor and the associated closed-loop operation.  With proper adjustment you get a richer mixture that tends to reduce operating temps a bit.

elgallo73 makes a lot of good points for consideration.

BK

[bikepilot]

I'm nearly certain that both the 696 and 695 sensors are giving you oil temp, not head temps.  Your CHTs will be much higher.  Fit a vapor with the spark plug temp ring for kicks.  imo oil ideally should be between 180-230F for maximum performance and longevity, but of course these things are durable enough and oil good enough that nothing horrible happens if you go way over this.  Head temps aren't really a concern on a NA moto engine.

[elgallo73]

I had no idea the 695 employed (2) temperature sensors and your information illuminated one important fact: the ECU does likely use head temperature in determining mixture (which is somewhat comforting).  I guess the Termi kit might not be a bad idea to lower temps, although I am still too cheap to buy it ...

Regarding bikepilot's post, it may very well be measuring oil temp, but it would appear from a technical stand point that the sensor on the 695 (the one located in the head) is measuring a combination of head temperature and oil temperature.  The engine during normal operation will not have an even temperature distribution, and for that matter, neither will the oil.

On my 696, the sensor is shown as bolting into the rear portion of the vertical cylinder.  Whether it is measuring return oil I cannot say as I have not removed it (someone here likely has the answer).  In the case of the 695, it is measuring the oil temperature in the head, which will (or at least SHOULD) differ considerably from the temp in the sump.

Ideally, the cooler oil from the sump is pumped into the head, removing additional heat which the surface area from the fins cannot remove efficiently.  Once the return oil reaches the sump, the heat is released and then convected/conducted to the case where it is transferred to the air via convective means.  The oil in our air cooled bikes must, for a short duration, be exposed to head temperatures likely in excess of 280-320 degrees fahrenheit before it can be cooled again in the sump.

From my reading, it seems there are two serious areas of concern and one minor issue with regards to our air cooled motorcycles with regards to thermal failure:

1)  The heads saturate with heat due to lack of air movement and/or failure in the lubrication system, leading to early wear and/or seizure.  (One of the more common failures if there is a problem)

2)  As a consequence of operating in a harsh environment (ie, high ambient air temperature), the oil in the sump saturates with waste heat which it cannot efficiently transfer to the case and consequently the air, leading to thermal breakdown of the oil.  (Not a very common issue, unless you regularly ride in an oven)

3)  Last, but not least, as a consequence of high head temperatures, the oil which is circulated through the head breaks down until engine failure occurs (the use of synthetic or dino oil with a high flash point mitigates this).  (Not necessarily a common problem, but we change our oil frequently enough to hopefully ensure our engine oil is not reduced to the consistency of water)

From an engineering stand point, it is likely that the Ducati engineers considered operation of the engine in a variety of environments (limited of course, after all, we live on planet Earth...) and designed the cooling area of the heads accordingly.  In other words, there is an upper limit and lower limit to the temperatures which the engine can reliably operate.  I doubt we will exceed those here, and if we do, we may have other things to worry about than our motorcycle engines ...

Here is a link to an article written by a Norton owner regarding head temperature and thermal break down of the oil (very informative and highly suggestive of frequent oil changes):



Test of oil cooler on Royal Enfield bike in India (yes, they still make them there) with numbers:

http://www.indiancarsbikes.in/automotive-technology/royal-enfield-avl-engine-oil-cooler-update-real-world-data-4175/

Interestingly enough, the last article shows a cooling of 24% with oil cooler over stock (wonderful, now after reading it again I am re-considering the addition of an oil cooler to my 696, thanks guys...).  Keep in mind, however, that a Royal Enfield engine is designed differently than our Ducati L-twins, thus that number may not hold...  The average I have seen from the research is maybe a 10-15 degree difference ON AVERAGE, in other words, you mileage will vary.

Just to make things more interesting, here is an article refuting the previous gains on the data from the Indian article:

http://www.royalenfields.com/2010/02/royal-enfield-oil-cooler-works-but-so.html

The oil cooler kit offered by Ducati is EXPENSIVE for what it is, in my opinion.  The H-Comp kit is nice but EXPENSIVE as well considering the parts make up and lack of HARD DATA (the necessity for titanium fittings is questionable, I've always found stainless steel to be more than adequate).  It becomes easier to shell out $400.00 for an oil cooler when a series of tests are performed with real numbers in a controlled environment.  Marketing statements as "it may" or "it seems" or "possibly" do not work for me.  The DIY $100.00 option is a useful mod for the investment required, in my humble opinion.  In other words, most of the work has been done for you, all you have to do is put together the pieces, which are relatively inexpesive...  For the lack of hard data on my year and model, I do not find an oil cooler to be a necessary option and have opted to go with frequent oil changes coupled with a high quality synthetic oil...

Isn't this fun?  One step forward, two steps back!!!

[d3vi@nt]

The sensor that was replaced was the oil temp sensor and all it does is read the temp and display it on the tach guage. It is this reading that will cause the bike to shut off if it gets too high (at least on my '07 model).

The shop folks felt that 300 was getting into the "not good" range and 305-310 was definitely something to avoid.

Given that I've nearly hit 300 on a short day of easy riding in 83 degree temps, I've determined it's best to do *something* to bring the temps down. I don't want to find out the hard way what will happen if I'm stuck in traffic on a 95 degree day.  Of the options, the oil cooler seems the most practical and economical (despite the <gulp> $400 cost)

[Buckethead]

[snip]

(despite the <gulp> $400 cost)

Just so's you know:

The previous-gen Ducati oil cooler is a KTM unit (seriously, mine has a KTM logo cast into the bottom of it) and can be sourced from them for significantly less than the IDENTICAL unit from a Ducati parts catalog.

Lines can be ordered from various places. I got mine from PJ's Parts. If you don't mind running one of the oil lines across the valve cover, as is standard, you can order the lines for any previous-gen Monster. If you'd rather run both lines under the engine and up the left side, just order the line kit for a HyperMotard.

[elgallo73]

I could be very wrong, but 300 degrees fahrenheit for a head temperature does not sound bad for an air cooled motor.  Save yourself the $400.00 and do what this fellow Ducati owner did:

http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/upgrades-performance-mods/190920-diy-100-custom-m696-oil-cooler.html

The cooler alone is less than $70.00...

EDIT:  Bucketheads pointer looks like it could save you some money as well (posted after he did).

[BK_856er]

I could be very wrong, but 300 degrees fahrenheit for a head temperature does not sound bad for an air cooled motor.  ...

If his M695 is reading 300F on the instrument gauge then that's the temp of the bulk liquid oil in the sump at the pre-filter screen....

BK

[DarkStaR]

Interestingly enough, the last article shows a cooling of 24% with oil cooler over stock (wonderful, now after reading it again I am re-considering the addition of an oil cooler to my 696, thanks guys...).  Keep in mind, however, that a Royal Enfield engine is designed differently than our Ducati L-twins, thus that number may not hold...  The average I have seen from the research is maybe a 10-15 degree difference ON AVERAGE, in other words, you mileage will vary.

It'll be about -15% in temp by adding a OEM oil cooler to a 620/695.

That's advertised and real world numbers.

[elgallo73]

If his M695 is reading 300F on the instrument gauge then that's the temp of the bulk liquid oil in the sump at the pre-filter screen....

BK

In line with Bikepilot's post, 300 degrees fahrenheit in the sump is VERY BAD (for the conditions he listed)...  I would, at the very least, get one of those thermometer guns (~$20.00-$30.00) and begin taking some readings.  If you have a friend with a similar bike (good working condition) you could at least compare readings.  I would take readings at the head, cylinder base, and sump at the minimum following a test ride in "real world conditions".

~15% reduction in oil temperature is not bad, provided that is the average and not an "ideal".  Even so, if he is reading 290 degrees fahrenheit with LIGHT riding, he will only see a reduction of 43.5 degrees (assuming a perfect 15% reduction in temperature via the cooler), thus leaving him with a temperature in the sump of 246.5 degrees fahrenheit assuming the cooler works EXACTLY as advertised and he continues a very MILD riding style, which in my opinion is still HIGH.

At some point I will have to pick one up myself and check my readings just for interest, but I would be VERY concerned if the sump temperature were that high.  Furthermore, if the sump temperature is nearly 300 degrees, God only knows how high the head temperature is.

I just checked the manual for the 2007 695 and the temperature is listed as low at 122 degrees fahrenheit and high at 338 degrees fahrenheit.  Most of the time all I prove is what I don't know but something sounds very wrong here, if your dealer diagnosed a bad sensor and replaced it yet you are still getting high readings, it is time to download a workshop manual and start poking around...  The silver lining to the cloud is that given you are working on an air cooled motor, you can disregard water pumps, thermostats, etc.

I would check your intake for leaks, exhaust gaskets/seals, timing, even the ECU for potential issues.  I assume you have had the bike for some time?  Historically, what have the readings been for your environmental conditions this time of year?  Did the high temps occur following a modification or some other change?

If an oil cooler in your situation drops temps by 10%-15%, that would be an improvement, but don't just go after the symptoms, look for a cause.  I cannot believe a stock 695 would run nearly 300 degrees in normal driving conditions.

The average temp I have seen in the postings for the 695 appears to be 235 - 245, and not with LIGHT riding...  Any 695 owners here care to chime in?

By the way, from my research on the web, an oil cooler DOES appear to be a recommended mod for the 695, but it does not have to be an EXPENSIVE mod...

One more thing, when was the last time the VALVE CLEARANCE WAS CHECKED?!?!?!?!?!?

[d3vi@nt]

I would check your intake for leaks, exhaust gaskets/seals, timing, even the ECU for potential issues.  I assume you have had the bike for some time?  Historically, what have the readings been for your environmental conditions this time of year?  Did the high temps occur following a modification or some other change?

One more thing, when was the last time the VALVE CLEARANCE WAS CHECKED?!?!?!?!?!?

The bike is new to me, bought it at the end of May with 5800 miles on it. It was immaculate with no mods. It now has 6400 miles and is still completely stock.  I have no historical data and I'm new to the Duc-world, so I have little to go on besides the knowledge in these forums.

When I took it to the dealer, they checked everything, put on new belts, tightened the chain and replaced the sensor. Everything else checked out.  Valve check is on the list for the 7500 mile maintenance.

@Buckethead: thanks for the KTM tip. I will definitely look into that.