Are water-cooled Monsters really Monsters?

[$Lindz$]

Question:  I know the second gen frame is ST derived, but isn't the ST frame just an updated design based on the Monster frame of the time. So if this is true, all the pre-2009 Monsters are 851/888 based.

I was going to say exactly this. What makes an ST frame unique enough to say that later Monsters are based on them?

Why wouldn't you say that an ST frame is also derived in it's own unique way from an 851/888 (just like a Monster)?

[ducpainter]

I would like to add that S2R and other bigger 2V Monster are cooled by an oil cooler.  These monsters are technically oil-cooled while the baby monsters (400, 600, 620, 695), without oil cooler, are truly air-cooled, or in bp's words, water-cooled.

You like how I reopened that can of worms?  You're welcome.  

Not so.

The only monster that is oil cooled are some of the early 900s.

It was to the best of my knowledge the only 2V motor with an actual oil jacket around the cylinder.

The fact that the oil is cooled by a cooler doesn't make an engine 'oil cooled'.

[Goat_Herder]

Not so.

The only monster that is oil cooled are some of the early 900s.

It was to the best of my knowledge the only 2V motor with an actual oil jacket around the cylinder.

The fact that the oil is cooled by a cooler doesn't make an engine 'oil cooled'.

LOL.

Round and round and round we go.
Where it stops don't no one know.

[DucHead]

No

Are garage queens Monsters?

[$Lindz$]

Are garage queens Monsters?

Haha.

It would be awesome if 20 years from now when they try and put some in museums, there aren't any in 'showroom condition'.


Sadly this won't be the case...

[chixstrip]

Are water-cooled Monsters really Streetfighters?

[$Lindz$]

Are water-cooled Monsters really Streetfighters?

I wanted to reply to this. No, I don't think so. The new Street Fighter is such an over-done spaceship. It lacks all finesse and panache that the Superbikes (and Monsters) have. Such a shame...

[corey]

what if you slap a bunch of superbike-grade suspension components and clip-ons on your aircooled monster? then do you have something better than the water-cooled (minus the power)?

riding my 800 with it's upgraded forks alone (rear shock will happen some day i hope) is like riding a feather on lightning-bolt.

[avizpls]

I submit for your approval my opinion.

what if you slap a bunch of superbike-grade suspension components and clip-ons on your aircooled monster? then do you have something better than the water-cooled (minus the power)?

Thats what I did. And no, its no longer a Monster. It just changes the attitude of the bike and thats what the Monster, to me, is. The posture, the feeling, the rawness.....I changed all that and I no longer have a monster (in a sense)

That said, yes, the water cooled ones are monsters. They're just Bigger Badder monsters. The Air cooled ones are Leaner Meaner.

[junior varsity]

Question:  I know the second gen frame is ST derived, but isn't the ST frame just an updated design based on the Monster frame of the time. So if this is true, all the pre-2009 Monsters are 851/888 based.

I was going to say exactly this. What makes an ST frame unique enough to say that later Monsters are based on them?

Why wouldn't you say that an ST frame is also derived in it's own unique way from an 851/888 (just like a Monster)?

The ST frame uses the double-bar ass end of the frame, and the "ST-based" Monster frames deleted that cuz its oogly, but that's where the rear suspension came from - interchangeables. BAM! 1.5 sentences, muckalucka

[Travman]

  Good job.  But, we still need an occasional long post to fill the day.

So the ST frames are updated Monster frames with updated rear suspension and double bar rear section. Any other changes?  Is the steering head geometry the same?  Isn't the steel tubing a litle thicker?

[junior varsity]

different steering head all together - the 851-888-"M900" frames use the thinner stem with top "bolt" over top triple into center of stem - retaining collar-nut below top triple to hold bearings/lower-triple/head-stock all together. And the top triple also has pinch bolt to clamp it stem.  when you compare to the later monsters (and ST's and 916 and later SBKs and all current models), that top "bolt" is redundant (and was eliminated completely - and on my bike, replaced with one of the motowheels billet bling ones - at first I was concerned you could not 'torque' it properly, but again - its redundant, if it popped off, you would not suddenly be in the weeds)

yer new-fangled monster replaces the bearing collar-nut with the stem-nuts with holes in the top that the top triple pinches around.

851-888, monster frames thereon, and old SS:   skinny stem setup, and either hooped or no-linkage rear suspension

ST's & Monster frames thereon: new, bigger stem setup, interchangeable swingarm-rocker-rod suspension linkage (fairly similar to 916)


long posts happen when i am taking an unconscious diversion from whatever i'm supposed to be doing. Like reviewing TX law regarding fundamental corporate changes or completely unrelated community property or completely unrelated real property transactions... only 1 week till freedom

[silas]

monster history:
I just read an interview online (can't remember where) w/ Miguel Galuzzi and Claudio Castiglioni. In about 1992 Galuzzi built and was riding a stripped down 888 based naked bike to work that he built for himself. Claudio loved it and urged Miguel to design a naked bike. One of the main reasons to install the supersport motor was that the 1990-1991 (pre-'91-98) Supersports were not selling and Ducati had a whole lot of 900 Supersport motors lying around. Of course the simplicity and lack of the UGLY radiator & plumbing of the 888 certainly helped. The Monster was born -first actually conceived as a 4V bike. W/o the M900, Ducati may have gone under. (how many times have they been saved from the brink...tpg...etc?).

Financial reasons strengthen it of course, but I've always been on the simpler, lighter, better built !  more reliable 2V'ers. Just plain better day-to-day bikes but not the beasts I'm sure S4RS's are. The 2Vers are not quite "modern bikes" anymore, but classics. The evolution of Ducati's 2V bikes reminds me a lot of Porche's 911 evolution.

Oh, and as most know, the early M900 guys were installing 916 rear ends on them long before any S*R's came out...


Now where is our 350lb 110 hp 2V supersport? probably only 'old guys' would buy them- like the sales failures the Sport 1000's.

[Travman]

I'll have to look at the steering head and triple of an early generation Monster the next time I see one to compare.

How about the tubing that makes up the frames.  I've heard people call the earliest frames skinny tubes frames.  Is there a difference in the size of the tubing?

[Travman]

Now where is our 350lb 110 hp 2V supersport? probably only 'old guys' would buy them- like the sales failures the Sport 1000's.

I wouldn't call the Sport Classics sales failures. They sold well during their first couple of years. They had their run and I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar again in a few years.

The problem with the 350lb 110hp 2V Supersport is cost.  It will cost too much to build. High end components and light weight materials would have to be used.