Has your Attitude towards Stoner Changed?

[EvilSteve]

no arguing stoner's speed.  let's not forget he spent a year on the V5.. yeah yeah, he crashed a lot, but he was also blazing fast then, too.  my point is that the general honda ethos was not brand new to him last year at this time.

and they may have the last in a batch of small incremental changes but no way was the 2010.0 and the 2010.5 RC212v the same bike.  they found some serious motor in the middle of the year.

These two statements are nearly contradictory. I get your point, Honda as a company wasn't completely new to Stoner but I don't think that has any bearing on my point which was that it was a totally different bike.

wow EvilSteve....my main thing is that Stoner is now firmly in the primary seat for the RC213V in the realm of a new chapter....now is the point at which we shall see a lot of things potentially happen in 1 way or another...I am not disputing that he firmly won the championship or that he is a good rider....but he isn't GOAT material IMHO either....he has the weilding end of the pointy stick and is the master of his destiny from here....but to what point shall he remain in that control has as much to do with factors outside his control too...and giving credit is also due to Suppo for bringing him in to Ducati and then into Repsol Honda....and if Casey keeps producing results...then Suppo will fight HRC to make sure he gets what he needs...the minute he flounders...it will be a different story as HRC have shown in the past...they choose their favorites....

Most of what you're saying is true for any rider in the field excepting maybe Rossi (who *is* the GOAT IMO). It's really apparent based on how I read your posts (I'm not objective here either mind) that you don't want to give Stoner credit for what he's achieved. I would have thought that the fact that The Ben™ and Stoner are buddies and he has the respect of the vast majority of riders on the grid (if not verbally expressed in Rossi's case, he must have now realized what crazy shit Stoner had to do to be winning on the GP10) including Lorenzo would lead some of his detractors to be a little less critical.

I don't think he's the GOAT and I don't think he has a shot at it unless his domination from this year continues. I don't even think *he* thinks he's the GOAT, he is measuring himself (at least publicly) against Mick Doohan who no one argues was the GOAT.

I get frustrated because people (not just you by any means) take a really dim view of Stoner because "he's a whinger". Rossi had plenty to say about Stoner's whinging until he actually had to ride the bike and found that everything Stoner was "whinging" about was true. Burgess said he could fix the bike in 80 seconds, how'd that work out for him? Bloody long 80 seconds if you ask me.

To your specific comment, I don't see anywhere, at any point (unless I missed something which is entirely possible) where Stoner has received any undue preferential treatment. No team orders, no special parts, nothing. Your suggesting it is why I reacted the way I did because it's just conjecture at best and is another example of people talking about Stoner in a really negative way because they don't like him. I'm not intending to attack you personally of course but I think your statement is weak at best.

[gm2]

These two statements are nearly contradictory. I get your point, Honda as a company wasn't completely new to Stoner but I don't think that has any bearing on my point which was that it was a totally different bike.

but it wasn't a totally different bike.  it was an evolution of the honda motogp machine. 

they may have really screwed up the power delivery of the 800 at first/hypothesized that the switch to 800s would be different than it was (or that ducati wasn't going to show up with a computer attached to a rocket), but they didn't fire all the pre-2007 engineers and start acting like a totally different company before they began, either.

however re credit where it's due, agree.  1 hour into day 1 of 2011 testing last year (nov 2010), i assumed stoner was going to win the title this year.  both he and honda deserve all that credit.  and then there's the serendipity that it worked that well straight away.

[The Don]

These two statements are nearly contradictory. I get your point, Honda as a company wasn't completely new to Stoner but I don't think that has any bearing on my point which was that it was a totally different bike.
Most of what you're saying is true for any rider in the field excepting maybe Rossi (who *is* the GOAT IMO). It's really apparent based on how I read your posts (I'm not objective here either mind) that you don't want to give Stoner credit for what he's achieved. I would have thought that the fact that The Ben™ and Stoner are buddies and he has the respect of the vast majority of riders on the grid (if not verbally expressed in Rossi's case, he must have now realized what crazy shit Stoner had to do to be winning on the GP10) including Lorenzo would lead some of his detractors to be a little less critical.

I don't think he's the GOAT and I don't think he has a shot at it unless his domination from this year continues. I don't even think *he* thinks he's the GOAT, he is measuring himself (at least publicly) against Mick Doohan who no one argues was the GOAT.

I get frustrated because people (not just you by any means) take a really dim view of Stoner because "he's a whinger". Rossi had plenty to say about Stoner's whinging until he actually had to ride the bike and found that everything Stoner was "whinging" about was true. Burgess said he could fix the bike in 80 seconds, how'd that work out for him? Bloody long 80 seconds if you ask me.

To your specific comment, I don't see anywhere, at any point (unless I missed something which is entirely possible) where Stoner has received any undue preferential treatment. No team orders, no special parts, nothing. Your suggesting it is why I reacted the way I did because it's just conjecture at best and is another example of people talking about Stoner in a really negative way because they don't like him. I'm not intending to attack you personally of course but I think your statement is weak at best.

Everything I ever wanted to say about Stoner but never had the vocabulary or grasp of the English language, well done evilsteve 

[koko64]

Here's for hopping on the Oz bandwagon!  Stoner did what Rossi couldn't.   

And DP, Go Mladin! 
 

[ducpainter]

Here's for hopping on the Oz bandwagon!  Stoner did what Rossi couldn't.   

And DP, Go Mladin! 
 

Thankfully, he's retired.

[koko64]

 

[zooom]

  It's really apparent based on how I read your posts (I'm not objective here either mind) that you don't want to give Stoner credit for what he's achieved. 

I give him credit....he is FAST...he had the BEST machine on the grid and utilized its every advantage and capability with his riding and pretty much dominated the 2011 season!!!...credit given where credit is due...

 

  I would have thought that the fact that The Ben™ and Stoner are buddies and he has the respect of the vast majority of riders on the grid (if not verbally expressed in Rossi's case, he must have now realized what crazy shit Stoner had to do to be winning on the GP10) including Lorenzo would lead some of his detractors to be a little less critical.

personal relationships and professional opinions don't necessarily equate to performance and criticism of said performances...especially when we here are just a general bunch of bench bullshitters in comparo....not like our opinions are going to land on the world feed somewhere...so we can afford to be a little more swayed in any direction we prefer, especially when we don't see things that these guys do, and chalk it up to a level of uninvolved ignorance...

I get frustrated because people (not just you by any means) take a really dim view of Stoner because "he's a whinger". 

it is hard to break away from an opinion that has been developed over an expanded time period in less time than it took to forge due to the actions for to make that opinion from....1 year of great riding performance on an awesome machine with some minor level of whining (no where near as much as when he was in the Duc camp) doesn't outweigh the past couple/few years of previous whining, despite what it was about and its validation...it takes time to break a mold and/or opinion that someone is pidgeonholed into....it isn't an overnight thing and probably never will be...as an example, look at the level of bashing that we do on Smurfy McPintsize that has decreased over the last year in comparison...

To your specific comment, I don't see anywhere, at any point (unless I missed something which is entirely possible) where Stoner has received any undue preferential treatment. No team orders, no special parts, nothing. Your suggesting it is why I reacted the way I did because it's just conjecture at best and is another example of people talking about Stoner in a really negative way because they don't like him. 

as far as liking him...I'll admit, I am not a fan of HIM, but I am a fan of his riding...when he is on, he is ON!....as far as HRC giving him special parts, whether they did or not, we will never know...but I seem to recall a greater emphasis on him and his data at the mid season testing point for 2nd gen/half of the 2011 seasons machinery than Dani's being reported by all media....as far as favoritism, the only thing I can say is that HRC is famous for prioritizing who is on top in their camp in terms of who's quotes are 1st in the press release, and I think all along it was Casey at the top of the bat...but in the end, it is my simple conjecture that I am expelling outward here, and maybe some agree...and maybe some don't...doesn't much matter to me...but at least there is a reasonable basis for where I am coming from in my thought process for me to personally extract in what I am have read from many media outlets that supply information to the public...

[EvilSteve]

To me, when people say someone is "whinging" I take that to have a negative connotation which implies that they're exaggerating or inventing the problem or overstating its effects. Maybe you have a different view of what "whinging" means.

The special parts/more focus thing is common to any team and any rider in a situation where they have to prioritize according to available resources. Don't see many people complaining about Rossi getting better parts than Nicky? I'm pretty sure they started prioritizing Stoner's input because Pedrosa was broken and Stoner was fighting for the championship by the early stages of the season. I dont see how anyone can fault him or HRC for that. I'm sure, if Pedrosa was getting screwed over, we'd be hearing about it loud and clear from Puge. Dovi screwed himself and was always on the way out.

People, yourself included, use reasoning to explain their dislike for Stoner that applies equally to many riders in GP but the conclusions are different. That leads me to the conclusion that the core issue is Stoner's personality which rubs people the wrong way and everything else is justification of an emotional reaction.

You and everyone else are welcome to their opinion but I feel the line is crossed when unsubstantiated claims are stated as fact and subsequent conclusions are drawn to support the already held opinion.

I'm not going to keep ranting about it anymore. I don't want to stifle discussion, I just wanted to make the point that when you say something like (I'm paraphrasing) "with Supo in the team, he'll get preferential treatment", that's just wrong. If Stoner is getting preferential treatment, he's getting it for the same reason that every other rider gets preferential treatment - he's got the best chance of winning the championship and is based on a completely logical and reasonable decision in the team.

[EvilSteve]

http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20111213#pg56

Rossi talking about the GP11 but saying something about Stoner.

[duccarlos]

He just ate crow. I think his comments were made to get under Stoner's skin. I think everyone in the paddock knew that the bike was crap.

[The Don]

He just ate crow. I think his comments were made to get under Stoner's skin. I think everyone in the paddock knew that the bike was crap.

Your right, everyone new the bike was crap, but Rossi's ego being what it is thought he could tame the bike, I mean why not he's the GOAT right? and if Stoner can win on it then surely Rossi could, Wrong.
Maybe next year with the new frame.

[Raux]

I still can't believe Ducati is betting it's WSBK-farm on this same frame design.

[duccarlos]

I still can't believe Ducati is betting it's WSBK-farm on this same frame design.

Correction, they are betting the farm on the design + tires of their choice.

[zooom]

I still can't believe Ducati is betting it's WSBK-farm on this same frame design.

well, I can, because the torque,power, and torsional forces are different between the V4 D16RR based motor and the V-twin evolutionary lump....that and the fact the the stressed member steering head is not CF like the MotoGP derivation, so the feel and input should be different....and Troy Bayliss I am sure was under no pressure to give them sweet smoke blown up their ass in the development process, so I am sure he told them exactly what he thought and felt because it was behind closed doors in the backroom of Corsa....so I think they are not comparable situations as far as the GP11 and the 1199.  

[Raux]

well, I can, because the torque,power, and torsional forces are different between the V4 D16RR based motor and the V-twin evolutionary lump....that and the fact the the stressed member steering head is not CF like the MotoGP derivation, so the feel and input should be different....and Troy Bayliss I am sure was under no pressure to give them sweet smoke blown up their ass in the development process, so I am sure he told them exactly what he thought and felt because it was behind closed doors in the backroom of Corsa....so I think they are not comparable situations as far as the GP11 and the 1199.  

actually the front is AL just like the version they used later in the MotoGP bike. so yes, they are similar tech. and that didn't work for the bike. BUT I do see that Bayliss rode the hell out of the bike. But Stoner rode the hell out of the GP bikes as well.

I'll just hold my praise for the new bike til it proves itself on the track.