2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue

[Curmudgeon]

Thanks! I'm burning 93 as well, but pure gas, not E-10, with Stabil this time of year. If you are burning E-10, watch this space as K100 may actually be the best option if you are concerned about your tank swelling.

All this is pure theory but the real "fix" is probably a richer flash from DNA for both of us. Since that is unlikely to happen, I've been trying to find a workaround. A stronger battery may do the trick. This remains to be seen. And yes, the stock battery has enough juice to crank indefinitely but possibly not as fast or as hot as needed to kick mine into life. We'll see... A couple of cars I used to sell had the same problem if a 66A was fitted but an 88A or 90A would fire it right up after the 6 seconds of cranking the ECU required @ 750+ RPM before it turned the fuel on. (Similar but not identical.)

[ilovemyduc]

Figured this might be interesting to you:
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/42-monster/124643-diy-696-796-1100-battery-cable-battery-upgrade.html

[Curmudgeon]

Figured this might be interesting to you:
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/42-monster/124643-diy-696-796-1100-battery-cable-battery-upgrade.html

Interesting. Some of the same info has been covered on this site as well. 796 does appear to be closest to..., but not identical with an M1100. For example, mine won't continue to crank if it fails to start. Different logic.

To me at least, both the cable and battery are workarounds, not fixes. The "fix" is a richer cold start protocol. Yet to be conclusively proven, but I'm fine with leaving the Battery Tender attached on start-up, as long as it will start first time as it did yesterday. That is also a workaround since this should be totally unnecessary.

Unlike some, my 796 will always start immediately for 12+ hours after it's been running, typically with the immobilizer still flashing. It's been overnight that my hard start first appeared.

"Plan B", if the above fails, will be to have the battery replaced under warranty (although mine reads 13.5V when cranking) and have a big Shorai and Shorai charger pigtail installed. DNA can pay for the labor. I'll buy the Shorai bits. That's 270 CCA vs the stock 215 CCA.

If that fails, I'll quickly build a lemon law file. Had this checked out at the first service, so that's strike one and the clock is ticking. It's evident that no two 796's are completely identical. Will post results here of course...

BTW, on this site, the Ballistic batteries have some issues and bad feedback. The Shorai seems OK but does need to be recharged on a Shorai charger unless they changed the design because a Battery Tender will only charge the first cell. Nothing is perfect I guess.

[ilovemyduc]

I was going to ask why not make 3 (or whatever it takes) separate appointments with the dealer and when it isn't fixed the last time, lemon it, but I figured that's already gone through your head.  Sucks to have to do that for a starting issue when it runs fine, but at the same time I believe that's one of the more basic components of a motorcycle and should probably work.  Would they successfully give you shit for your mods?

[ducatiz]

VA law says it has to be within 18 months of receiving the vehicle -- initial purchase.

http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/vehicles/lemonlaw.asp

[Curmudgeon]

ducatiz, thanks for the link. Believe I looked at it a while back. Trust it won't come to that but I've handled ~ 20 buy-backs or substitutions during my former career and know the drill.

ilovemyduc, we'll see. All "mods" are no issue and were performed by my dealer..., a very GOOD dealer, but he doesn't write software, unlike Larry Ferracci. And if I had to swap bikes, DNA has to pay to have my mods swapped over.

As I've said above, the cold start protocol is probably just too lean. Many who buy these bikes fit the DP ECU and Termis before or shortly after picking up the bike. Mine is stock and that's fine by me. Makes plenty of noise and other than this cold start issue, fuels fine with no major glitches. I'm sure a bit richer would be nice and make it run smoother, so may take ungeheuer up on his offer if we can get the cold start sorted. Otherwise, the bike couldn't handle or ride much better the way it's set up without serious expense. Unless the DOW hits 15,000 next year, I'm not up for that!

No doubt, the bike should start first time, every time. All my others which were starter-equipped did. If mine didn't while on a ride, you would be able to see the smoke wherever you are.  The dealer is aware.

DNA wants me to leave the bike with him so that he can take multiple readings and measurements with the bike stone cold. That's not exactly convenient right now as I'm 140 miles from him. If DNA knows I'm serious though, they might brew up a richer ECU. If they don't and the bigger CCA battery doesn't resolve it, then they'll have a hassle on their hands. I'd also rather the dealer didn't have to go through that as he's a nice guy, and these buy-backs always cost us money too.

[Armor]

From my experience, Ducati's do not like to start when it is cold.  Get another Ducati and you will have the same problem.  I think you need to find the strongest battery that will fit.

[ducpainter]

Minimum fuel requirement for the newer bikes is "95 RON (at least)", so I doubt 91 - 92 RON with all the crap in U.S. fuel is going to hack it. Besides, from the major oil companies, only the premium leaves the distributor with the best additive packages and is usually the cleanest.

As for your '01, you might well be right. One sure way to tell this is to measure your fuel mileage on 87 and 93. If you get no mileage improvement, then you're correct. On an newer EFi bike with O2 sensors, I'd wager the mileage would be 5% - 10% better on 93 M+R/2.

Not to be argumentative...

the info in the manual is BS, and I'd wager your bike will run better and make more power with less octane.

Humor an old guy and try some 87 octane.

The compression ratio of your 796 does not require the fancy fuel you're using.

[Curmudgeon]

Not to be argumentative...

the info in the manual is BS, and I'd wager your bike will run better and make more power with less octane.

Humor an old guy and try some 87 octane.

The compression ratio of your 796 does not require the fancy fuel you're using.

Hmmm... If the compression ratio were no higher than 9.5:1, I'd be game for a mix since the bike has no knock sensors. However, the manual says 11 +/- 0.5:1 and 95 - 98 RON. That makes sense to this feeble brain.

I presume the compression rato was lower on the Magneti Marelli bikes?

Would be cool if it had an accelerator pump and I could give it a good squirt with the twist grip. 

[ducpainter]

Hmmm... If the compression ratio were no higher than 9.5:1, I'd be game for a mix since the bike has no knock sensors. However, the manual says 11 +/- 0.5:1 and 95 - 98 RON. That makes sense to this feeble brain.

I presume the compression rato was lower on the Magneti Marelli bikes?

Would be cool if it had an accelerator pump and I could give it a good squirt with the twist grip. 

Ducati has been recommending 95 ron forever...

and it's been too much.

You've been around long enough to recognize pinging.

Give it a shot.

If I'm wrong it will ping.

If I'm right maybe your bike will start when it's cold out.

[Curmudgeon]

Sitting on 15 gal. of stabilized pure gas 93. Nearest 87 non-ethanol is 70+ miles. Full tank on the bike. When is April? 

So..., what's the compression ratio on your '96 M900?

[ducpainter]

Sitting on 15 gal. of stabilized pure gas 93. Nearest 87 non-ethanol is 70+ miles. Full tank on the bike. When is April? 

So..., what's the compression ratio on your '96 M900?

I can't find the manual right now, but did find it listed at 9.2:1 on line...you were close.

My 996 (base model) is also listed as 9.2:1 with the S at 11.5 :1.

I know people that run regular in S models with no pinging.

In my mind, if it doesn't ping it's the correct octane.

[ungeheuer]

If DNA knows I'm serious though, they might brew up a richer ECU. If they don't and the bigger CCA battery doesn't resolve it, then they'll have a hassle on their hands. I'd also rather the dealer didn't have to go through that as he's a nice guy, and these buy-backs always cost us money too.

Forgive me.  I mean well....

I live in a land where there are no lemon laws, so I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.  But that doesnt usually stop me from having an opinion   

You've been in the business, you know the ropes and understand your rights regarding raising a Lemon claim with DNA.  But.....  as you say... the dealer is a good guy who you'd rather not put through the wringer... you say yourself that the buy-back will cost both of you....  And I do understand that you're doing this to apply pressure on DNA.... but IMO they're not gonna come up with an EPA infringing ECU remap just to make you go away.  They wont do it, coz they cant solve your issue if to do so would create compliance issues.

So again, I know you are on the side of right.  But my suggestion is that you arrive at a pragmatic.... "settlement".... which provides you with funding to do what DNA will not; have your ECU reflashed for better fuelling. 

[Curmudgeon]

I can't find the manual right now, but did find it listed at 9.2:1 on line...you were close.

My 996 (base model) is also listed as 9.2:1 with the S at 11.5 :1.

I know people that run regular in S models with no pinging.

In my mind, if it doesn't ping it's the correct octane.

My '09 EFi T-100 is 9.2:1 and will burn 87 but runs better on 91. I'll try a mix on the 796 when the buds pop on the trees in the spring. Bit of a generalization but premium from Shell, BP, Chevron, Sunoco (not Gulf or Exxon, at least in the East), are usually cleaner and have better detergency. (Had a client who was a research chemist at Linden Lab in NJ where all the fuel for NY Metro gets mixed out of the pipeline by the major oil companies.) This was also our experience in the dealership where I worked, selling 1,100 vehicles/year and servicing 5,000+.

[Curmudgeon]

Forgive me.  I mean well....

I live in a land where there are no lemon laws, so I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.  But that doesnt usually stop me from having an opinion   

You've been in the business, you know the ropes and understand your rights regarding raising a Lemon claim with DNA.  But.....  as you say... the dealer is a good guy who you'd rather not put through the wringer... you say yourself that the buy-back will cost both of you....  And I do understand that you're doing this to apply pressure on DNA.... but IMO they're not gonna come up with an EPA infringing ECU remap just to make you go away.  They wont do it, coz they cant solve your issue if to do so would create compliance issues.

So again, I know you are on the side of right.  But my suggestion is that you arrive at a pragmatic.... "settlement".... which provides you with funding to do what DNA will not; have your ECU reflashed for better fuelling. 

Hello ungeheuer!

There you go being logical.  And yes, I know the system and could tie DNA up in knots they may not have yet experienced. Cost to me is time and inconvenience. Even reasonable transportation costs may be their responsibility. Yes, my dealer is a good guy who means well. He'd get stuck with the bike at a reduced wholesale figure which could cost him. Sometimes they go to auction though and he'd be off the hook but I doubt DNA has those resources.

As for a special map, reflash or chips, several boutique car companies I represented did these for problem cars. I even have a factory special cold start chip in my V8 Defender 90.  Installed that mainly to delete the speed restriction though.

For convenience, these bikes are delivered here in Euro 3 trim. CARB (California tree-huggers) might require a tune this dire, but the US EPA does not. I'm aware of one case where DNA provided a richer ECU but it came from the factory. Unlike the little car companies, I doubt DNA has an engineer in CA who can cook chips and write software. Siemens is a major PITA too. This I know from the single car model we had which ran Siemens for several years.

DNA has a responsibility to deliver a product which operates as intended, so they have to supply a fix which works, or buy the bike back or replace it with one which does if the customer wishes. This response from the manufacturer is not optional. Sometimes you have to build a fire under them to get the proper response. What they won't do is to sanction and pay for an aftermarket solution. No way, no how!

I'm not familiar with Australia but I do know the U.K. has "fit for purpose" standards. They don't even require the three attempts to correct the issue before that kicks in. Are you sure you don't have something like that?