2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue

[Raux]

Do you know about these guys?

http://www.alientech-to.it/

[ungeheuer]

I'm not familiar with Australia but I do know the U.K. has "fit for purpose" standards. They don't even require the three attempts to correct the issue before that kicks in. Are you sure you don't have something like that?

We have "fit for purpose" consumer protection laws, but they'd rarely go so far as to get you a vehicle replaced or refunded.  Suppliers under Australian law must guarantee that goods are of "acceptable quality (safe, durable and free from defects, acceptable in appearance and finish and do all the things that the goods are ordinarily used for) and are fit for any disclosed purpose" 

So if a motorcycle never started, then its not a viable means of transport and so would not be fit for purpose.  If it was a bit of a pain in the arse to start, but did in fact start, then it would be fit for purpose IMO.  So yeah, we do have some consumer protection but nothing as clearly defined as your lemon laws.

[Curmudgeon]

Do you know about these guys?

http://www.alientech-to.it/

Hello Raux,

No idea. Who are they? Do they do work for the factory? Mine is a warranty issue on an essentially stock bike. I'm not looking to re-engineer it. Not my problem.

If and when my cold start issue is sorted, I might look into ungeheuer's Dynojet O2 "optimisers" because I imagine they'd smooth the bike out and sharpen response. I'm not unhappy with the bike as is..., provided it would start reliably when cold.

Regards!

[Curmudgeon]

We have "fit for purpose" consumer protection laws, but they'd rarely go so far as to get you a vehicle replaced or refunded.  Suppliers under Australian law must guarantee that goods are of "acceptable quality (safe, durable and free from defects, acceptable in appearance and finish and do all the things that the goods are ordinarily used for) and are fit for any disclosed purpose" 

So if a motorcycle never started, then its not a viable means of transport and so would not be fit for purpose.  If it was a bit of a pain in the arse to start, but did in fact start, then it would be fit for purpose IMO.  So yeah, we do have some consumer protection but nothing as clearly defined as your lemon laws.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the Brits get a refund (buy-back) if the vehicle won't start and the issue can't be corrected. A vehicle which starts "eventually" is not acceptable.

And yes, pretty much "cut and dried" in the U.S. Over here, sometimes a manufacturer can be a bit slow to respond to a dealer, but they get moving when a customer calls and opens a file. Now that I'm retired, I can tell that I've carefully coached several clients in just what to say.  Works like a charm!

If a client of mine had a vehicle which required 10 - 15 attempts to get started and we couldn't resolve it, I wouldn't blame him if he drove it through the front door of the showroom, even if WE didn't make the beast. Thankfully it never came to that. We did spend huge hours on a couple of vehicles though installing totally new wiring harnesses. Maybe you know, but a modern luxury vehicle has more wires and fiber optic cables than an old telephone exchange! 

Regards!

[Raux]

Actually funny you mntion wiring harness

Ithink at least one person had theirs replaced on here for issues

do a little search.

[Curmudgeon]

Actually funny you mntion wiring harness

Ithink at least one person had theirs replaced on here for issues

do a little search.

A little search indeed!  If you mean the poor bastard whose gf's 696 had the mystery LAMB fault code, yes..., finally. Also found some service advisories which was not a bad thing. I checked mine for the one with the wire touching the fins of the vertical cylinder and mine has an air gap of 3mm - 5mm with no sign of contact, so I'll keep an eye on it. No real convenient way to zip tie that one which might not also create chaffing issues. No other obvious signs of harness rubs although I didn't disassemble anything.

Was thinking about taking a little ride today as it's warmed up a bit, but no sooner did I get the gear out than it started gusting to 20 - 30 MPH! OK, call me a wimp, but not my idea of fun... Maybe tomorrow before it starts freezing again....

[metroplex]

Are you still having cold start issues with your 796?

I fired up my 696 in one push of the button when it was 5 degrees outside (5F), and I'm running 93 octane with probably 10% ethanol (whatever is mandated in Michigan). I have repeated this throughout the months after I figured out the problem. Your mileage may vary. It starts as easily as any of my EFI/MPFI/Direct injected automobiles.

Here's the new 795, and how little engineering was involved to plop your 796 into the 696 chassis:
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/wheels/ducati-monster-795-first-ride_663620.html

The Monster 1100 engine is quite different though, with a dual spark system for starters (4 spark plugs total).

[thought]

Here's the new 795, and how little engineering was involved to plop your 796 into the 696 chassis:
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/wheels/ducati-monster-795-first-ride_663620.html

The Monster 1100 engine is quite different though, with a dual spark system for starters (4 spark plugs total).

FYI, the same frame is used for all the monsters from the 696 to the 1100, hence you can fit any engine you want into the frame.  What curmudgeon was trying to tell you is that the engine internals are different and will probably react differently.

Not sure why you keep on bringing it up in his thread.

[metroplex]

I looked through the 796 parts manual as well as the 1100 manual. The main difference between the 796 engine and 696 engine is the 796 uses a stepper motor, or what I'd call an idle air bypass valve or idle air controller (IAC) similar to what is used on most pre-05 fuel injected cars (05-up are generally drive by wire and use a motor for the throttle control). The 1100 has 2 extra spark plugs, making it quite different from the 696/796 although I'm sure someone will argue about the actual part numbers.

I did about a year's worth of research on the 696 cold start problem, and the solution I found indicated it wasn't related to the engine internals, Siemens EFI, ECU, DP/Race ECU, ambient air temperature, battery, starting/cranking voltage, spark plugs, spark plug wires, octane of fuel, ethanol content of fuel, not being broken in yet, etc... (basically all of the complaints I have read from other 696 owners). My 696 now starts in the winter like a Japanese bike or a fuel injected car. I figure this probably applies to the 796 and 1100 (if they experience cold start issues) as well, since this problem was inherent straight from the factory/dealership and was not a user-caused issue or difference in engine design.

[Curmudgeon]

What curmudgeon was trying to tell you is that the engine internals are different and will probably react differently.

Not sure why you keep on bringing it up in his thread.

Hi "thought",

Correct..., as stated many times above. The ECU starting protocol is a lot different in the 796 vs. the 696, and the engine is higher compression, much like the 1100 evo with similar heads.

There is some combination of parameters, i.e. voltage, crank position, and the like, which is slightly off since ~ 500 miles.

There is a trick which works on the M1100 which I have been using, since it's utterly pointless to crank the bike again and again if it fails to start first time. Namely..., if she won't start on the first try, come back in ten minutes. It then always fires and continues running.

Last weekend I charged up all the batteries in the garage since none of the toys had been out for weeks. For giggles I tried the 796 with a full charge and the tender attached. No start... Came back in 10 minutes and it fired right up.

Two days later here and it was warm enough for a ride. Hit the button and it fired right up. Go figure. Obviously the stars were aligned.  (Or crank sensor?)

Recently an 1100 rider had a stalling problem on cold start which turned out to be a couple of tight valve adjusters. Unlike the 796, the evo ECU doesn't shut everything down if it fails to fire immediately. You had a 796, so you know that ECU conks out instantly if it doesn't like what it sees.

I'll get the bike to Donnie when it's convenient. Meanwhile, the M1100 trick works..., and for the rest of the day the bike starts normally whether hot or cold. Next day is another matter...

Stay warm up there! We may get a flurry or two tomorrow night. I hope not or they'll drop the salt/sand/dirt mix they use down here which stays in the corners through July! At least the stuff you have in NJ is mostly gone after a good rain or two.

[Bishamon]

I had a similar issue yesterday with my 796.  Since new it would occasionally not start on the first attempt, but it would only take another try or two and once it started, it would run fine.  Yesterday the problem was different.  It would start, then shut off.  I would start it again, and it had the same problem....  it would try to idle really low for a second and then shut right off.  I tried turning the key to the off position, waiting 30 seconds or so, and tried again...  no go.  I tried revving the throttle immediately after starting, but as soon as I let go it died again.  Finally I had to hold the throttle after starting and then keep it revved a little when stopped and in neutral for fear that it would stall again.  The bike was running fine, otherwise, with no warning lights or unusual behavior.  After a few minutes of riding I took a chance and let it idle on its own at a stop, and it was just fine.  It acted normal the rest of the way home.

It was quite warm out at a little over 20 Celsius, and it had fired up just fine in the morning for the ride to work and then sat for about 9 hours.  The bike had been on a tender prior to leaving in the morning as well, so the battery was fully charged.  I have been running ethanol-free Shell V-Power since new and the bike currently has under 3000kms on the clock.

Hopefully when I start it today it will be fine, but who knows?  Maybe I should try resetting the TPS, but I don't know why I should have to.

[Curmudgeon]

Next time it won't start and run on the first attempt, wait five minutes to try again. Currently this is working on mine. I figure it has something to do with the ECU starting protocols. There are so many possible variables. Your fuel formulation may have just changed for summer too? The above trick I learned from an M1100S rider. BTW, mine always starts fine if it's been ridden and restarted within ~ 12 - 24 hours.

[Bishamon]

It started at the first attempt today, though it seemed to rev a little high for a brief moment before settling into its normal post-start idle.

[Curmudgeon]

It started at the first attempt today, though it seemed to rev a little high for a brief moment before settling into its normal post-start idle.

Ideally it should rev to ~ 2,000 briefly before the stepper motor settles it at ~ 1,200. If that's what happened, that's ideal.

Mine hadn't been out in 10 days, so this AM I used the method I suggested to you above. No start, wait five minutes, try again. It starts on the 2nd attempt and idles at 1,200..., or at least mine does. If you then immediately shut it down and come back in two hours, it will fire instantly and do as yours did today. Something obviously has to wake up in that ECU apparently

Keep me posted on yours. 

[CFM]

I own a 2011 monster 796.  I bought it used.  It had around 5000 miles on it.  I was having starting issues in the morning when i bought it.  A bunch of forum reading and research didn't do me any good.  I ended up changing the oil and that helped for a couple of weeks.  Then it started again.  Albeit less frequently.  Then i deleted the evap canister and that seemed to help again.  Now the starting issues are very intermittent.  Did the service one myself minus throttle body sync, which i wish someone knew how to do so they could teach me. Anyway after that the starting issues went away, BUT NOW the bike will start and idle for around 2 to 5 minutes and then randomly cutoff.  So i don't know what the problem is.  Nothing has changed, haven't installed or done any work.  Hope that helps people out there.  Good luck.