I'm confused... is an M2005 helmet as safe as a M2010?

[rideserotta]

I've been looking for a new helmet and had settled on an Arai Vector. I found one ridiculously cheap (extreme supply) but the description says M2005. It's a closeout and not the Vector 2 but it is new. Should I worry about safety? Degradation? Do helmets degrade/weaken from sitting on the shelf?

[Howie]

A while back there was debate that the Snell 2005 was ...um...to good a standard.  My suggestion is to do your own research and make up your own mind since this concerns your noggin.  As far as life of the helmet on the shelf, most manufacturers recommend five years from date of manufacture.  This also seems to be the gold standard for tracks too.  IMO, five years is an appropriately conservative figure based on a worst case scenario.  How old is the helmet?

[thought]

from the wikipedia entry on snell:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snell_Memorial_Foundation#Controversy

Controversy

In 2005, Motorcyclist magazine wrote an in-depth article[3] discussing helmet testing and safety. The article included criticism of SMF standards by prominent head injury and helmet design experts, including Dr. Harry Hurt, author of the Hurt Report, who described the Snell standards as "a little bit excessive," and Dr Jim Newman, former head of SMF, who characterized the then-current SMF standard as a "marketing gimmick." The article reported that a softer absorption material would transfer less g force to the head in the most common motorcycle accidents than the stiffer absorption material required in Snell-Certified helmets. [4] SMF released a technical critique and rebuttal to the article which is available at their website.[5] In September 2009, New York Times published a follow-up article which cited the 2005 Motorcyclist article; SMF rebutted it as well. [6] SMF's 2010 standard for motorcycle helmets now conforms with one of the magazine's criticisms, that a larger head will also be a heavier head.[7]

in the end, all you need to know is that m2010 is prob better for you in a crash than a m2005.

unless you're deadset on a old vector due to fit, i would say take a look at some of the cheaper current helmets.  the quality is the same all around due to the standards, weight will prob be a bit more, but you'll be getting a helmet that will prob last you longer due to a newer production date.  the bell vector is a really nice price point and has a lot of great features on it... and you can also get those photochromatic transitions visors too.  i would have gotten one but it just doesnt work with my head shape.

and the reason they say every 4-5 years is because the styrofoam in the helmet does degrade with time.  your head moving around in it will eventually start to compress it a bit more all the time, and if you ever leave your helmet on your tank on a hot day, those gas fumes will eat away at the foam too.

that being said, if it's a new off the shelf old helmet... i'd say you can prob use it with no issues for the standard amount of time.  i think arai on their website suggest 4-5 years "from date of purchase" not manufacture.

[rideserotta]

thought... that's great insight, thanks. Arai's fit seems really good for me. I say 'seems' because I've only tried it on in the store for a short time. Since it fits well I was trying to find a bargain. I should probably go ahead and get the Vector 2. The older models is $100 cheaper but that's only $20 over five years of expected (hopefully) life. That's really not much of a difference when you look at it that way.

I need to find a Bell dealer. Looks like their Vector is a dirt helmet. What model of Bell has the photo chromatic shield?

[bikepilot]

The Bell you want is the Star.  Their good dirt lid is a moto-8 or moto-9.  Basically all the rest of their lids are crap.



I don't know what rating is best and I'm not sure the information is available to know.  

FWIW Hurt was a long-time government type and involved in the DOT ratings, of course he thinks his way is better, I wouldn't put much stock in that article.  His basic point was that their upper limit for g-transfer was higher than is good for a head.  That is probably true, but that doesn't really tell you anything about how lids compare in a crash that would transfer less energy.  It did make a big splash when it came out, but its far from objective or scientific imo.  As best I can tell there is no available data on crash protection beyond knowing that a lid meets various minimum standards - and that's a shame.  Personally I wouldn't be confident in saying any one lid is safer than another for full face, high end, laminate-construction lids that are certified by at least one of the big lid certifiers.  The various methods of testing seem pretty limited and not terribly useful as well.  None test neck strain, I don't believe any test for rotational g forces (which, I'm told, are the ones that most often cause brain injuries), multiple strikes (matters if you bounce more than once), or the rebound effect after the initial hit (huge difference in laminate and polycarb helmets here - polycarb lids bounce like a basketball, laminate shell helmets go thud and don't bounce much - I've tried both side-by-side).

[thought]

actually, the snell standard has to survive two hits to the same location in order to be certified.  though this is a pretty non real world application... i dont think many accidents have the exact same spot hit twice in a row.

also, sorry, i didnt mean the vector, it was the bell vortex that i was talking about, here is a review of it:

http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/motorcycle-helmet/bell-vortex/

webbikeworld is actually a great source for helmet reviews... the best one imo.  you can look up most of the popular helmets on their site.  most importantly they give helmet shape info.

also keep in mind that basically every diff helmet has a different shape.  imo, test out as many as you can and find the shape that fits you best and buy it.  even if it's more than you originally wanted to spend, a ill fitting helmet is something you're going to hate and get rid of pretty quick.  a comfortable helmet will pay back dividends over the life of it's service.

also, look up this other thread in this forum... it had a link to a jay leno garage clip where a arai rep broke down how to find a correctly fitting helmet.  the blurb they use is that 98% of most rider's first helmets are 1 size too large if not two sizes too big.

nm, found it for you:

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/arai-helmets/283819/

[teddy037.3]

also keep in mind that basically every diff helmet has a different shape.  imo, test out as many as you can and find the shape that fits you best and buy it.  even if it's more than you originally wanted to spend, a ill fitting helmet is something you're going to hate and get rid of pretty quick.  a comfortable helmet will pay back dividends over the life of it's service.

an ill-fitting helmet can also be dangerous.

+11TB on fit, fit, fit.  always try on lids before buying.

[triangleforge]

One of the main knocks on the older Snell standard is that it also pushed manufacturers to make the shell too rigid as well. While it initially seems counter-intuitive (keep that concrete as far away from my head as possible!!!), a softer shell allows the foam to compress from both sides, rather than just the inside. Bike helmets went through the same evolution - all hard shells, then many with no shell at all (which had its own issues), and now a thin, slick outer shell that will slide across pavement but won't inhibit the outside foam from compressing along with the inside.

Another standard worth considering is the European ECE 22-05 standard, which allows for a softer outer shell than the Snell M2005.  You'll see it on Euro helmets from companies like Shark, Schuberth or Vemar.

And from what I've read, the differences in the standards tend to show up most in the smaller sizes & on lighter heads.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure my Shoei is an M2005, though it might even be an M2000...  (Bang head smiley seemed appropriate in this thread)

[OT]

Arai's warranty is 7 years (it was on my 2004 Arai).  I wouldn't worry too much about the 2005 v 2010 differences, as any helmet is better than no helmet at all.

FWIW (from memory) - the helmet that measured out as 'safest' in the 2005 Motorcyclist article was one of the cheapest - around $100-150 new - because it wasn't as hard as the big-name shells also being tested.

actually, the snell standard has to survive two hits to the same location in order to be certified.  though this is a pretty non real world application... i dont think many accidents have the exact same spot hit twice in a row.

Agree that hitting the same spot twice is unlikely; however, this is a good approach to take imo cause it includes the real fact that the rider's head may likely hit the ground several times in a high(er) speed get-off, as well as confirming the helmet performs well in the 'worst cast scenario' when the same spot hits twice.

[twolanefun]

I would look at some of the other brands, such as Scorpion(EXO 1100), AGV (Grid) just as good IMHO for less money. But if you are going to spend the amount of money required for an Arai, I'd buy a Shoei instead, an RF11000 to be specific. The Arai shield system is horrible if you like to remove it for cleaning like I do, sometimes several times a day and I find my Arai is a little cooler when the temps drop than my Shoei or my Scorpion. BTW here is the Web Bike World review http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/motorcycle-helmet/arai-vector-2/ - Gene

[Triple J]

The Arai shield system is horrible if you like to remove it for cleaning like I do,

The Arai system isn't bad. I've removed mine many, many times (2 different helmets) and never had a problem. It just takes practice, and you can't try to be too gentle. Just line it up, jam it in there, and ignore the horrible noises. 

That said...the Bell Star shield system is hands down the best of any I've seen....and they're Snell 2010 rated.

[twolanefun]

The Arai system isn't bad. I've removed mine many, many times (2 different helmets) and never had a problem. It just takes practice,

And the Myth continues

The best system is still the Shoei and while I loved my old Bell Helmets back in the day, they are just not quite as good as some of the others in that price range. - Gene

[Triple J]

And the Myth continues

The best system is still the Shoei and while I loved my old Bell Helmets back in the day, they are just not quite as good as some of the others in that price range. - Gene

What myth is that? The Shoei system may be better, but the Arai system is fine, and their helmets are very nice. It definitely isn't a reason to not buy the helmet. people have different heads, and I have yet to find a Shoei in any price range that fits my head as well as an Arai.

[phishhead1]

i just picked up a bell star Snell 2010 at STG for $349 warrantied for 5 years and all bell full face lids have the transitions visor fit is great just follow their sizing guide.  I spent a couple of months researching my choice of lid and found that the 2010 ratings are way above and beyond DOT requirements. the way i see it the more protection for my noggin the better. At the price i got the lid it was well worth it. after i have had it a little longer ill let you know more of what i think of it.