Inane ramblings to avoid thread jacking

[toolfan]

Awww shucks.

I think a lot of Code's ideas and philosophies are pretty out dated,
they made sense when the bikes were more violent and couldn't handle the level of finesse required to do well at the race track these days.  It made more sense to be full on the brakes before the corner, get through it any way you could then full on it when the bike was straight.  Nowadays, tires are soo good and suspension, brakes and engines are better, you can blur the lines for more speed.



One thing I do agree with him about is that brakes are for slow and throttle is for go - at the track.  Why waste time slowing down when you can get your speed down NOW?  If you are at neutral throttle, you are asking to get passed.
Plus, on I-4 bikes, or even worse, 2-smokers, there isn't a whole hell of a lot of engine braking to be had, especially when you add a slipper clutch.  BLING BLING.

[Betty Rage]

Awww shucks.

I think a lot of Code's ideas and philosophies are pretty out dated,
they made sense when the bikes were more violent and couldn't handle the level of finesse required to do well at the race track these days.  It made more sense to be full on the brakes before the corner, get through it any way you could then full on it when the bike was straight.  Nowadays, tires are soo good and suspension, brakes and engines are better, you can blur the lines for more speed.



One thing I do agree with him about is that brakes are for slow and throttle is for go - at the track.  Why waste time slowing down when you can get your speed down NOW?  If you are at neutral throttle, you are asking to get passed.
Plus, on I-4 bikes, or even worse, 2-smokers, there isn't a whole hell of a lot of engine braking to be had, especially when you add a slipper clutch.  BLING BLING.

^^^ what he said.

[Mother]

that may be

but

it is popular to suggest that new riders read A Twist of the Wrist and hail Code as a god

However, imo

teaching racing concepts to new riders that bypass basic technique such as engine braking is begging for potential failure

and it creates shitty riders

How many youtube videos show a rider approaching an easy stop and fold up the front end for no apparent reason?

engine braking, some gentle rear brake, and stay off the giant front rotors and that wouldn't happen

but

we all happily  to Code and repeat his montra "brakes are for stopping"

 

[duc_fan]

When I'm making my way down Boones Ferry Road in a civilized manner, and approach a stoplight, I will let off the gas, allow the bike to compression brake, and use only a little bit of front brake to complete the stop.  Smooth.

When at the track, coming off the front or back straights, I friggin nail the brakes to whoa before entering the corner.  Also use the brakes to scrub off speed built up by throttle application between corners.

Granted, I haven't actually raced, but that's the method that seemed to make sense when on track, where time is of the essence.


Yes, I'm one of those idiots blathering about something he really doesn't know much about.    I'm gonna shut up now and go back to work... I just had to give my brain a break from debugging test scripts, and motorcycles are a pleasant distraction.  [moto]

[toolfan]

This is something else I have a little insight on --

FAR more riders are killed or injured by inadequate braking than by overuse of the front brake.

The VAST majority of a bikes stopping power comes from the front, a failure to properly use it leads to either 'having to lay it down" or impact, or both. 

So, yeah, for a newb, brakes are for slow.  For a racer, brakes are for slow.

For someone with moderate-advanced experience, riding at or near the speed limit, maybe rolling off gets the job done most of the time, but if you never practice the use of the front brake, it's not going to be there when the fan is on high and you are the poo headed straight for it.

that may be

but

it is popular to suggest that new riders read A Twist of the Wrist and hail Code as a god

However, imo

teaching racing concepts to new riders that bypass basic technique such as engine braking is begging for potential failure

and it creates shitty riders

How many youtube videos show a rider approaching an easy stop and fold up the front end for no apparent reason?

engine braking, some gentle rear brake, and stay off the giant front rotors and that wouldn't happen

but

we all happily  to Code and repeat his montra "brakes are for stopping"

 

[Mother]

no


look it is simple

you cannot have black and white statements like engines are for going and brakes are for slowing as teaching elements

unless you are training dogs

Engine braking is a fundamental of motorcycling

when you poo poo it as Code does...(or at least we are assuming at this point because i can't find the quote)

you ignore a major part of vehicle function and basic principal

the act of slowing down is initiated by releasing throttle

this is engine braking

the engine automatically does it when the gas is let off

and regardless of your skill or application be it street or racing

it is a vital aspect of smooth vehicle operation

to say not to engine brake is to imply that when you want to slow down you pull clutch and hit the brakes and skip the whole middle part of using the motor to slow down

that is why the black and white of that statement is stupid

Even when hot on the front rotors you are downshifting and releasing the clutch in order to use engine braking to keep the ass end in line

So eat it hippy boy

Engine braking is a vital part of slowing a motorcycle

[NEIKOS]

I have to pee. 

[ryandalling]

I have to pee. 

I have to queue.   

[toolfan]

When training, it's better to simplify than to overload.

You have to distinquish signal and noise - effective stopping or slowing with both brakes is signal, engine braking is noise.

It is better, in any scenario to teach pulling in the clutch and using the brakes to slow than it is to TEACH engine braking, because it is more effective than releasing the throttle and relying on the engine for braking.  If the lesson being taught is "how to slow or stop a motorcycle" the focus control is the brakes.  On most bikes, the rear brake is more powerful than engine braking.

Further, anyone who cannot figure out engine braking on their own, does not deserve to ride a motorcycle, at least not for very long.

I poo poo it in rider instruction and racing, two places where it certainly does not belong. 
Engine braking breeds complacency, if you have enough margin for complacency, then it is acceptable.  Newbs and racers do not.

no


look it is simple

you cannot have black and white statements like engines are for going and brakes are for slowing as teaching elements

unless you are training dogs

Engine braking is a fundamental of motorcycling

when you poo poo it as Code does...(or at least we are assuming at this point because i can't find the quote)

you ignore a major part of vehicle function and basic principal

the act of slowing down is initiated by releasing throttle

this is engine braking

the engine automatically does it when the gas is let off

and regardless of your skill or application be it street or racing

it is a vital aspect of smooth vehicle operation

to say not to engine brake is to imply that when you want to slow down you pull clutch and hit the brakes and skip the whole middle part of using the motor to slow down

that is why the black and white of that statement is stupid

Even when hot on the front rotors you are downshifting and releasing the clutch in order to use engine braking to keep the ass end in line

So eat it hippy boy

Engine braking is a vital part of slowing a motorcycle

[ryandalling]

It is better, in any scenario to teach pulling in the clutch and using the brakes to slow than it is to TEACH engine braking, because it is more effective than releasing the throttle and relying on the engine for braking.  If the lesson being taught is "how to slow or stop a motorcycle" the focus control is the brakes.  On most bikes, the rear brake is more powerful than engine braking.

Can I hire you to teach? Need to get that wifey of mine out on the bike more often.

[JohnnyDucati]

I'm on board with Mother on this one.  Engine braking is a huge fact of life on a motorcycle (esp 2 cyls.).  It is always there.

It is going to take place whether the newbie wants it to or not.  Everyone has to learn how to manage it, sooner or later.  Better to learn it sooner with instruction rather than later, violently, on your on.

The question on "whether" or not to use it under this or that circumstance is an entirely different debate.  I use it all the time.  I'd be sad if I had to give it up    in order to be regarded as a better rider.

Where's Krolik?  Victor!  Jump in on this heated debate!!

[toolfan]

Manage what?  You think that not being taught to use engine braking is going to result in a crash?

Did anyone teach you engine braking as a technique?  Did anyone need to?

I'm not advocating that you shouldn't use engine braking, I'm saying it's a worthless skill to teach, and has no place on a race track.

I'm on board with Mother on this one.  Engine braking is a huge fact of life on a motorcycle (esp 2 cyls.).  It is always there.

It is going to take place whether the newbie wants it to or not.  Everyone has to learn how to manage it, sooner or later.  Better to learn it sooner with instruction rather than later, violently, on your on.

The question on "whether" or not to use it under this or that circumstance is an entirely different debate.  I use it all the time.  I'd be sad if I had to give it up    in order to be regarded as a better rider.

Where's Krolik?  Victor!  Jump in on this heated debate!!

[jdubbs32584]

Manage what?  You think that not being taught to use engine braking is going to result in a crash?

Did anyone teach you engine braking as a technique?  Did anyone need to?

I'm not advocating that you shouldn't use engine braking, I'm saying it's a worthless skill to teach, and has no place on a race track.

No one taught me about engine braking and when it first happened to me, I about dumped the bike. Keep in mind, I was a complete newb with all engines and didn't even know about the concept.

Woulda been nice to have been taught it so I would at least know what it was. Now I use it all the time.

[toolfan]

How did you learn?
Organized instruction, or through a friend?

Also - honestly, if the concept that closing the throttle will lead to deceleration is completely foreign to someone, I don't think they are ready to ride a motorcycle.  JMHO and all.

No one taught me about engine braking and when it first happened to me, I about dumped the bike. Keep in mind, I was a complete newb with all engines and didn't even know about the concept.

Woulda been nice to have been taught it so I would at least know what it was. Now I use it all the time.

[SaltLick]

thats why i slow down......??