Inane ramblings to avoid thread jacking

[toolfan]

This is my computer background at home:

You ever grab some brake and they fail? It feels like you instantly gain 10 mph. How come? 

damn hippies 

make the beast with two backs yeah. 

I'm still curious about how it went down - or rather, how it didn't go down.   

[Tailgunner]

Laughing so hard I look like this:  dick

[Visolara]

I dont lose traction when I modulate the throttle in a lean.  Its simply under power, or not.

[toolfan]

I dont lose traction when I modulate the throttle in a lean.  Its simply under power, or not.

I know, but truly "steering with the rear wheel" requires braking traction - and I'm not there.

Even in racing, I rarely went to 100%, I could always "push more to lean more" to tighten my line, and I never went 100% in a pass.  I actually think I ran slower times when I thought I was going 100%... 

That's why I'll go down as an "also ran," I suppose.   

[Visolara]

ok, now Im confused.  When did backing it in enter this conversation? 

[Mother]

I will maintain that teaching clutch in/brakes on technique over brakes on/downshift is lining certain riders up for failure


and I mis-represented my stance on this

i am not proposing Engine Braking as an alternative to brakes

I am proposing that it needs to be used as a filler in between brake application

as far as teaching it solely, you call it complacency, and I call it proper preperation to a stop

when riding on the street you should be aware far enough ahead to downshift a bike to a stop applying both brakes at the 2nd and 1st gear mark

initiate the stop with downshifts

5th-4th-3rd-Rear Brake-2nd-Front Brake-1st/Stop

or

Rear/Front brake-5th-4th-3rd-2nd-1st/Stop

but never

Clutch-Rear/Front Brake-Stop


you mentioned the front brake is the most importaant aspect of stopping, i agree

and

you mention that the rear brake is more powerful than the engine brake, I agree

but the engine is still a slowing factor and a force to be dealt with when slowing or stopping

you can grab as much front and rear brake as you want but if you also downshift at the same point and hear the motor increase revolution then it is applying drag to your stop which is contributing to the force of slowing

[toolfan]

ok, now Im confused.  When did backing it in enter this conversation? 

Backing it in is only a small part of steering with the throttle... right? 
I've decided to drop this portion of my argument.  I don't steer with the throttle, and honestly, I only have theory for discussion.  It works for you, so I'll concede you are the expert there.

I think one time, someone asked Rossi how he wins so many races, and he said "easy, less brake, more throttle."
In reality, we do things different, but ideally, you'd go smoothly from the brake to the throttle for the fastest way around, right?  Use the most powerful tool in your box, most of the time?

I will maintain that teaching clutch in/brakes on technique over brakes on/downshift is a lining certain riders up for failure

You know what the second leading cause of single vehicle motorcycle fatality accidents is (in Oregon)?  Not stopping quickly enough. 

I will maintain that there is no harm in not teaching engine braking, but there can be harm in relying on it.

[Mother]

You know what the second leading cause of single vehicle motorcycle fatality accidents is (in Oregon)?  Not stopping quickly enough. 

I will maintain that there is no harm in not teaching engine braking, but there can be harm in relying on it.

I am not proposing engine braking over brakes

and

i am not factoring this concept for an emergency stop

the main point I am making here is the idea of removing it from the equation (clutch in) is stupid

[toolfan]

I am not proposing engine braking over brakes

and

i am not factoring this concept for an emergency stop

the main point I am making here is the idea of removing it from the equation (clutch in) is stupid

Trust me, taking it out of the equation works much better.

"All four paws kiddies, both hands squeeze, both feet press."

If you try something else, you'll end up with bodies everywhere*



And to respond to your edit -

I don't let the clutch out between gears when I'm stopping in a remotely quick manner. 
IE - coming into T1 at PIR - Brakes, clutch 5-4 clutch out, brakes out
Emergency stop on the road - brakes, clutch 4-3-2-1 (as required)

In a laxidasical stop, I'll shift w/o clutch, or I'll let the clutch out - but this is a complacent stop where I'm not concerned with getting my speed down NOW.

[toolfan]

*funny aside...

One time, in a class that I wasn't a part of... a student came in clutch out in the quick stop excersize of a BRT course.  This was at the Sylvania course, which has very little run out on one of the stopping chutes. 
She panicked a little bit, for one reason or another, and stopped braking and continued throttling.   (a common "mistake" for newbs is to roll on the throttle while applying the front brake - another reason to teach them to pull the clutch in.)  She overshot the braking chute, and went over the curb and through the shrubbery, and down into a parking lot below.  Because she was still upright, she decided to just cruise the parking lot, taking a little tour of the facility, up the driveway, around the range and back in line.

The instructors were,  umm... impressed, I suppose. 

[Mother]

Trust me, taking it out of the equation works much better.

"All four paws kiddies, both hands squeeze, both feet press."

If you try something else, you'll end up with bodies everywhere*



And to respond to your edit -

I don't let the clutch out between gears when I'm stopping in a remotely quick manner. 
IE - coming into T1 at PIR - Brakes, clutch 5-4 clutch out, brakes out
Emergency stop on the road - brakes, clutch 4-3-2-1 (as required)

In a laxidasical stop, I'll shift w/o clutch, or I'll let the clutch out - but this is a complacent stop where I'm not concerned with getting my speed down NOW.

this is the approach that most instructors use here at the FD as well

they dumb down a concept in order for the lowest common denominator to understand

then when you need to rely on the person taught in this manner they have huge gaps in their understanding of an idea

I don't like that approach

simplify yes, ockham's razor yes, but don't take out the idea completely

as a teacher you are the expert sure but to eliminate a principle in order to teach those likely unteachable is cheating your better students

and yes your better students will find the knowledge on their own

but

take my experience with Team Oregon and that jackass bill or howard or whoever we figured it was

constantly telling me that rolling off and using my rear brake was wrong

well in the lowspeed stuff we were doing it was perfectly acceptable

and I still have my giant front rotors available if I need to stop NOW

I'm not saying that you are a poor teacher

and I understand that you need to keep it simple for the amount of people you teach that really shouldn't be there

but

it pisses me off to have a teacher assume I'm stupid and teach me like I cannot learn a complicated idea

because he/she hasn't taken the time or does not have the time to actually know the student...yes this is left over Dr Phil shit of mine from High school

[Visolara]

My contribution to this yell at Elias thread was while in a committed turn (no rear wheel loss of traction here), you can control your lean with the throttle.  On throttle pulls the bike up, and increases radius (you do this on exit all the time!), and roll off throttle (even a little), will make the bike dive in (tighten the radius).  I use this all the time when racing to correct my line while in a committed lean.

Now stop yelling at me, and start drinking!

[Mother]

it kills me when maurice has these lucid moments

like he knows more than

ooh ooh beer

and

ooh ooh boobies

[toolfan]

1) It's not dumbing down - that's how to do a quick stop.  Further, for people with little or no experience, it's borderline blatantly dangerous to attempt a quick stop with the clutch out.  Fully 2/3 or any given class will come down the chute at least once with their engine near redline because they've rolled on the throttle as they've squeezed the brake.  With the clutch in, this is just noise, clutch out, this is someone getting hurt and firefighters having to come down and demonstrate their techniques.


2)The excercise is called "Quick Stop."
You were not demostrating a "quick stop."  Your instructors did not know you, or your skill level, so they must coach you to demonstrate your proficiency at stopping quickly.

(insert mean spirited joke about running into _____ here)

(insert your choice of raccon, family of raccoons, bridge, Morilla or other in the blank space above.)

 

this is the approach that most instructors use here at the FD as well

they dumb down a concept in order for the lowest common denominator to understand

then when you need to rely on the persontaught in this manner they have huge gaps in their understanding of an idea

I don't like that approach

simplify yes, ockham's razor yes, but don't take out the idea completely

as a teacher you are the expert sure but to eliminate a principle in order to teach those likely unteachable is cheating your better students

and yes your better students will find the knowledge on their own

but

take my experience with Team Oregon and that jackass bill or howard or whoever we figured it was

constantly telling me that rolling off and using my rear brake was wrong

well in the lowspeed stuff we were doing it was perfectly acceptable

and I still have my giant front rotors available if I need to stop NOW

I'm not saying that you are a poor teacher

and I understand that you need to keep it simple for the amount of people you teach that really shouldn't be there

but

it pisses me off to have a teacher assume I'm stupid and teach me like I cannot learn a complicated idea

because he/she hasn't taken the time or does not have the time to actually know the student...yes this is left over Dr Phil shit of mine from High school

[Mother]

1) It's not dumbing down - that's how to do a quick stop.  Further, for people with little or no experience, it's borderline blatantly dangerous to attempt a quick stop with the clutch out.  Fully 2/3 or any given class will come down the chute at least once with their engine near redline because they've rolled on the throttle as they've squeezed the brake.  With the clutch in, this is just noise, clutch out, this is someone getting hurt and firefighters having to come down and demonstrate their techniques.


2)The excercise is called "Quick Stop."
You were not demostrating a "quick stop."  Your instructors did not know you, or your skill level, so they must coach you to demonstrate your proficiency at stopping quickly.

(insert mean spirited joke about running into _____ here)

(insert your choice of raccon, family of raccoons, bridge, Morilla or other in the blank space above.)

 

hhmm

how to get through to the big educated dummy that I am not talking about engine braking and a quick/emergency/oh shit stop...




I see your bridge comment and raise you a driveway comment