Using coal to power our vehicles?

[Ducatiloo]

FROM WIRED  ie I am not going to do the math myself

Making a Prius uses 113 Million btus
One Gallon of gas contaions 113,000 btus

That would mean that the Prius used 1,000 galons of gas before it leaves the factory  IE Carbon Debt

If the prius was compaired to used Tercel at 35 mpg, which in this math problem does not count it's Carbon Debt since it counted against the first buyer.

The Prius would have to drive 100,000 miles to catch up to the Toyota Tercel.

[Triple J]

So I actually ran the spreadsheet cause I'm a nerd. 

Assuming the hybrid gets 40mpg.  To work off the "fuel debt" would require:

40,000 miles in comparison to a 20 mpg car

120,000 miles in comparison to a 30 mpg car 

280,000 miles in comparison to a 35 mpg car 

Interesting!  It all hinges on the Hybrid's fuel economy, but more than I thought for sure.

***By the way...I'm not a hybrid proponent.  I just thought the number looked high at first glance. I stand corrected!

If the hybrid gets 50 mpg:

33,000 miles compared to 20 mpg car
75,000 miles compared to 30 mpg car
117,000 miles compared to 35 mpg car

[Ducatiloo]

So wired numbers were low! 

[lethe]

So by the time it equals out, you need to shell out big cash for a new battery pack and the vicious cycle begins anew.

[Triple J]

So by the time it equals out, you need to shell out big cash for a new battery pack and the vicious cycle begins anew.

The whole car would probably fall apart by then! 

[Le Pirate]

BUUUUUTTTTTT.....


what if the BTU's used to make the battery came from renewable energy (wind, solar, etc). say the hybrid was assembled at a plant with wind generators and solar panels on the roof? wouldn't it's carbon footprint be considerably less right from the begining.

assume both cars were made at the same plant...using renewable energy. In this case, the hybrid would be the better choice.

[sno_duc]

So I actually ran the spreadsheet cause I'm a nerd. 

Assuming the hybrid gets 40mpg.  To work off the "fuel debt" would require:

40,000 miles in comparison to a 20 mpg car

120,000 miles in comparison to a 30 mpg car 

280,000 miles in comparison to a 35 mpg car 

Interesting!  It all hinges on the Hybrid's fuel economy, but more than I thought for sure.

***By the way...I'm not a hybrid proponent.  I just thought the number looked high at first glance. I stand corrected!

If the hybrid gets 50 mpg:

33,000 miles compared to 20 mpg car
75,000 miles compared to 30 mpg car
117,000 miles compared to 35 mpg car

Try your spead-sheet with a TDI.
My last tank was 41.9 mpg, I'm running 225/45/17 potenza's and I drive it like a four wheeled Monster
If I put skinny low rolling resistance tires on and babied it I would be getting mid to high 50's mpg.
Of course with my driving style tires wouldn't last 5k, so the money I save in diesel I'd be spending on tires.

Look at car sales in europe ( you know the place with NO speed limit and lots of twisty mountain roads ) diesels are 50% of cars sold, hydrids 1-2%.

[NAKID]

So I actually ran the spreadsheet cause I'm a nerd. 

Assuming the hybrid gets 40mpg.  To work off the "fuel debt" would require:

40,000 miles in comparison to a 20 mpg car

120,000 miles in comparison to a 30 mpg car 

280,000 miles in comparison to a 35 mpg car 

Interesting!  It all hinges on the Hybrid's fuel economy, but more than I thought for sure.

***By the way...I'm not a hybrid proponent.  I just thought the number looked high at first glance. I stand corrected!

If the hybrid gets 50 mpg:

33,000 miles compared to 20 mpg car
75,000 miles compared to 30 mpg car
117,000 miles compared to 35 mpg car

That's all fine and well, if you assume that the car you are comparing it to used ZERO BTU's to create....

[Triple J]

That's all fine and well, if you assume that the car you are comparing it to used ZERO BTU's to create....

Not really.  You assume the base car and the hybris took the same btu's to create.  Both have all the basic car parts, and both have an engine.  The only difference is the hybrid has a large bank of batteries which the regular car doesn't, which is where the added btu's come from.

That said, it is of course a simplistic model.  I also didn't research the 1,000,000 btu to make a battery claim.  I just like spreadsheets! 

[ROBsS4R]

What about this car 

[Pedro-bot]

FROM WIRED  ie I am not going to do the math myself

Making a Prius uses 113 Million btus
One Gallon of gas contaions 113,000 btus

That would mean that the Prius used 1,000 galons of gas before it leaves the factory  IE Carbon Debt

If the prius was compaired to used Tercel at 35 mpg, which in this math problem does not count it's Carbon Debt since it counted against the first buyer.

The Prius would have to drive 100,000 miles to catch up to the Toyota Tercel.

Thanks for correcting my original post. Yeah my math seemed way OFF when I originally posted but I thought, "what the heck, it get's the point across." I was trying to remember exactly what I read and didn't have the magazine handy to use as a reference.

BUUUUUTTTTTT.....


what if the BTU's used to make the battery came from renewable energy (wind, solar, etc). say the hybrid was assembled at a plant with wind generators and solar panels on the roof? wouldn't it's carbon footprint be considerably less right from the begining.

assume both cars were made at the same plant...using renewable energy. In this case, the hybrid would be the better choice.

Nah, way off too. It takes large amounts of energy to create these "renewable" energy sources, so that counts against it. I won't try to quote WIRED again 'cause I was way off the last time I tried but anyone interested should really check out that issue. I'm sure if you google it you can turn the issue up online.

The issue covers a great range of factors. It's interestingly thorough and covers areas I never would have thought to be as polluters.

[NAKID]

Nah, way off too. It takes large amounts of energy to create these "renewable" energy sources, so that counts against it. I won't try to quote WIRED again 'cause I was way off the last time I tried but anyone interested should really check out that issue. I'm sure if you google it you can turn the issue up online.

How does it take a large amount of energy to create wind and solar energy? All you need for wind is a turbine and for solar you need the photovoltaic panels which are relatively inexpensive to make....

[Randimus Maximus]

How does it take a large amount of energy to create wind and solar energy? All you need for wind is a turbine and for solar you need the photovoltaic panels which are relatively inexpensive to make....

130 ft turbine blades & 300 ft steel tower use some type of energy to create, transport, erect, etc.

[NAKID]

But not compared to what they produce. Also, I though we were talking about residential applications. This all started when we brought up the Tesla Roadster and how to get the electricity to charge it.

Link to Residential Wind and Solar energy

[Randimus Maximus]

I don't know that gov't subsidies help the cause by masking the true cost.