5W-40 Rotella T6 causing clutch slippage?

[Langanobob]

(I know my name's on the posts, but I didn't write it, only transcribed and edited.)

I know I've thanked you before, but thanks again for doing that. Without your efforts most or all of George's work and his legacy would be lost.

Bob

[metroplex]

Just an update, I bought some Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 and found out I only need about 2 quarts to get it in-between the low/max marks. The oil filter doesn't take much oil, so buying 3 quarts might even be overkill.

The 20W-50 feels thicker. During startup, the engine takes much longer to warm up and during this time, it feels slightly more "lopey". Once I'm on the road, the shifts are like butter. I'm clicking away at the upshifts, and even during 9000 RPM speed shifts using the clutch, there's no "cat screeching" or clutch slippage even after looking at the new datalogs.

I don't think my 696 liked the Rotella T6 5W-40. It was either too thin, or had too much friction modifiers. The fact both the T6 and M1 V-Twin meet JASO MA suggests that my 696 did not like the thinner oil.

[corey]

i'm no oil expert, and won't pretend to be one. a 20w-50 sounds pretty heavy for our bikes. keep in mind that our desmo L-twins rev much higher than the typical V-twin that the particular Mobil1 is made for. I imagine you'll have no issues, but on your next oil change, give Mobil 1 Racing 4T (10w-40) a shot. Formerly Mobil1 MX4T. I've been using it for 5 years now in my S2R800 (same ATPC setup) with ZERO issues, and great results....

aside from that one time i kicked over a quart of it with the cap off... nothing like watching $10 spill allover the floor of your garage...

The bottle looks just like that Vtwin you bought, only it has a "racey looking sport bike" on it.

[ducatiz]

i'm no oil expert, and won't pretend to be one. a 20w-50 sounds pretty heavy for our bikes. keep in mind that our desmo L-twins rev much higher than the typical V-twin that the particular Mobil1 is made for. I imagine you'll have no issues, but on your next oil change, give Mobil 1 Racing 4T (10w-40) a shot. Formerly Mobil1 MX4T. I've been using it for 5 years now in my S2R800 (same ATPC setup) with ZERO issues, and great results....

I used that for a few years in my S2R until I tried the Mobil1 10w40 High Mileage.  I'm going to send a sample of each out soon and see what the comparison is, my guess is they are pretty similar.

[metroplex]

I thought long and hard about that one. But Ducati specified 10W-40 in the air cooled bikes as well as the water cooled bikes until 2008. If you read the owner's manuals for the Monster from 2001 to 2007, they all specified 10W-40. Starting in 2008, all the bikes were specified to use 15W-50, including the water cooled bikes like the D16RR Desmosedici RR and Monster. I went and checked on what changes were made to the Monster for the 696, and the biggest change I see was the elimination of ball bearings for the cams.

The Harley V-Twins can rev fairly high as well, my 696 is only going up to about 9500-10k from what I recall, not exactly ultra high like an inline 4.

[ducatiz]

I thought long and hard about that one. But Ducati specified 10W-40 in the air cooled bikes as well as the water cooled bikes until 2008. If you read the owner's manuals for the Monster from 2001 to 2007, they all specified 10W-40. Starting in 2008, all the bikes were specified to use 15W-50, including the water cooled bikes like the D16RR Desmosedici RR and Monster. I went and checked on what changes were made to the Monster for the 696, and the biggest change I see was the elimination of ball bearings for the cams.

The Harley V-Twins can rev fairly high as well, my 696 is only going up to about 9500-10k from what I recall, not exactly ultra high like an inline 4.

My owner's manual for my S2R lists multiple oils available.  They shipped it with 10w40, but just like a car, the type you use should depend on the ambient temps for the season.  When it was sold, I used T6 5w40 with no problems.  When it was super hot out, I used Repsol 15w40 from Honda.  I kept 10w40 in it most of the time though.  I would also do nutter things like drain off a quart of the 10w40 and add 5w40 when it was cooler or vice versay with the 15w40 when it was hotter.  I doubt I've ever run with "straight" 10w40 for more than a month.

[metroplex]

In all of the Ducati owner manuals, they specify one weight of oil, then give that 1970s car oil viscosity chart. It said 10W-40 for pre-08, and 15W-50 for 08-up. I'm not sure what year your S2R was, but I looked at the 02-07 manuals and they all said 10W-40. In my 09 manual for the 696, it says 15W-50 and then gives the 1970s car viscosity chart.

I don't switch oils depending on the temperature in my car, I just use one oil year-round from -10F to 100F. I don't like the idea of a 20W-50 and would prefer a 15W-50 as per the manual, but I can't find a motorcycle-specific 15W-50 synthetic locally at a reasonable price. I don't plan to ride below 40F ambient, so I think it'll be ok?

[ducatiz]

In all of the Ducati owner manuals, they specify one weight of oil, then give that 1970s car oil viscosity chart. It said 10W-40 for pre-08, and 15W-50 for 08-up. I'm not sure what year your S2R was, but I looked at the 02-07 manuals and they all said 10W-40. In my 09 manual for the 696, it says 15W-50 and then gives the 1970s car viscosity chart.

I don't switch oils depending on the temperature in my car, I just use one oil year-round from -10F to 100F. I don't like the idea of a 20W-50 and would prefer a 15W-50 as per the manual, but I can't find a motorcycle-specific 15W-50 synthetic locally at a reasonable price. I don't plan to ride below 40F ambient, so I think it'll be ok?

Motul has a 15w50 in the US..

[HotIce]

[metroplex]

Roger on the Motul, but I'd have to order it. The VOA's showed lots of moly and less additives. I also needed a COTS solution right away. Will the V-Twin 20W-50 harm the 696 engine in the long-run?

[ducatiz]

Roger on the Motul, but I'd have to order it. The VOA's showed lots of moly and less additives. I also needed a COTS solution right away. Will the V-Twin 20W-50 harm the 696 engine in the long-run?

I doubt it as long as you warm it up but I would cut it with the 10w40 if it was me.  It's really too heavy of a startup weight.

[ducpainter]

I doubt it as long as you warm it up but I would cut it with the 10w40 if it was me.  It's really too heavy of a startup weight.

I agree.

The old bikes liked 20/50 because there were only plain bearings on the rods.

The new bikes w/ plain cam bearings wouldn't fare very well I wouldn't think.

[metroplex]

I checked the parts catalog for my 696 and there are no mechanical bearings for the camshafts. According to Webbikeworld: "The camshafts now rotate on bearing surfaces directly in the cylinder head and are supported by means of oil pressure. The elimination of the bearings has enabled the weight of this unit to be reduced considerably and the layout simplified."

[ducatiz]

I checked the parts catalog for my 696 and there are no mechanical bearings for the camshafts. According to Webbikeworld: "The camshafts now rotate on bearing surfaces directly in the cylinder head and are supported by means of oil pressure. The elimination of the bearings has enabled the weight of this unit to be reduced considerably and the layout simplified."

i wonder if it is just polished or if there is any coating on the bearing.

years ago when i did vw engines, i got the cam and crank bearings and lifters coated in a bake-on SFL by HPC in Oklahoma.  The difference was noticeable almost right away, oil temps were about 20-30 deg less in an otherwise stock bug engine. 

the 20w will actually cling more to the vertical head but it's really too heavy for that application.

[Scissors]

In a general sense you're going to want an oil which has a viscosity of about 15 centistokes as measured at the oil pick-up (we'll call it the "pan" for convenience).

For cold start, this means that even a 0W-__ oil is too thick, so you want the first number to be as low as possible.  If you're going to run a __W-40, I recommend a 0W-40.  Even at 104 degrees fahrenheit (the temperature at which the "cold start" measurement is taken), 0W is still about 5 centistokes too high.

For operating temps, things are going to vary quite a bit.  Keep in mind the location of your oil sensor, as well.  On my 1100 the sensor is at the rear cylinder, right near the head.  This means that the temperature delta between it and at the pan is approximately 40 degrees.  So at a typical, mid-range summer or in-traffic reading of 300 degrees, the oil in the pan is around 260.  At that temperature you want a __W-60 oil to maintain the proper viscosity.  The problem with that is that it'll be far too viscous at lower temperatures, and especially at cold start, so they compromise and recommend the __W-50, which can handle the higher temps better than __W-40, while minimizing excessive thickness at lower temperatures.

Reference the following charts:
http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto_oils/images/Table_5_viscosity_comparison_chart.jpg
http://www.elephantracing.com/images/techtopic/oiltemperature/viscosityvstemperature400.gif

Water-cooled engines, of course, can maintain a consistent temperature for the oil of around 210 degrees, so a __W-40 oil will always be the correct choice.