Rossi vs. Ducati...and more spoilers

[derby]

Maybe the idea was't flawed all along, could it be that Rossi just couldn't get his head wrapped around that bike?

casey won one championship on the bike and his performance got progressively worse every year until he left.

yeah, it's just in rossi's head. 

[Raux]

casey won one championship on the bike and his performance got progressively worse every year until he left.

yeah, it's just in rossi's head. 

the gp8 was the last trellis
the CF and the Al frames have the worst showings of all the GP bikes.
again. Ducati knows trellis. maybe it's time to go back to it.

[wantingaduc]

casey won one championship on the bike and his performance got progressively worse every year until he left.

yeah, it's just in rossi's head

Casey showed that the bike can win, it's just that it takes a specific rider amd style to do so.
His progress might have gotten worse for additional reasons other than the bike. His "lactose intolerance," his frustration with the lack of continued development of the bike, his pendng offer from Honda and maybe just his general dislike of the MotoGp circus...

I'm not saying it's all in Rossi's head. But if the 1199, in street trim, can lap as fast as the outgoing WSBK bike, can ehre be that much wrong with the basic premise of the CF frame that the concept just out and out will not work in the MotoGP environment?

Correct me if I'm totally wrong, but wasn't one of the driving forces behind the change to an aluminum frame the fact that changes could be made faster then the carbon one? When the first aluminum frame was used wasn't it very similar in design to the carbon one too?

jimi

[wantingaduc]

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/ducati-parallel-motogp-project-aluminum-chassis/

Ducati’s biggest problem is that the carbon fiber frameless chassis gives feedback differently than a traditional metal chassis, making it a tough-study for riders who have had an entire career centered around a twin-spar aluminum frame design. Compounding the issue further is the fact that while carbon fiber is infinitely more dynamic and tunable than aluminum or steel, it also means that Ducati has to go through many more permutations of carbon fiber chassis parts to find the right amount of flex and feedback to accommodate what the riders are looking for in the Desmosedici. With limited resources in building all these carbon fiber parts, Ducati is having to slowly but surely not only understand its creation, but also zero in more variables than on a standard racing package.

Preziosi spoke to this sentiment when he said, “We are exploring different solutions, though I don’t think material is the key point. But for sure, shapes, stiffness, distribution of the stiffness through the length are concepts that we want to explore in order to build up knowledge. So, this is something we will do, and of course, every time you put something new in the truck, you have to compare it with the existing solution.”

It might be old news now, but the above article and statements might still be valid in teh post Rossi age.


jimi

[ducpainter]

From the guidelines...

 

2.5.  Members should not post copyrighted materials without permission of author or photographer as applicable. Links to other publications or materials are allowed along with a short introduction to the material.

Think you could make your use of the material short?

Please?

[wantingaduc]

My bad, I thought it was a short usage of the article. I guess I should have put the last line first..
It wont happen again, promise.

Here’s my not so crystal ball predictions for Ducati’s 2013 MotoGP program.

The 2 Factory teams running development projects at the same time.

Hayden and Dovi on an aluminum version of the “frameless” design, with the backing of Audi , who has extensive background in aluminum chassis engineering.  Remember the talk of Dovi needing reassurance of Audi’s participation in the MotoGP program, he wanted to make sure they would consult and assist in development. The information already gained from development of the 1199 superbike’s aluminum frameless chassis would translate into additional information that the MotoGP team and Audi could use.

Then the “junior team” would be running a carbon version of the same chassis to gain additional information into the similarities and differences between the 2 materials. Remember, part of the problem with development of the carbon chassis was that the engine is a stressed member. Any frame changes that affected the engine required the use of another of the teams allotted motors. Not something you want to risk when Rossi and Hayden are your riders. But with a junior team that might not be as big a problem. Then once the carbon version is “perfected” it makes a comeback in the main team.

I would say given the extensive time and money Ducati spent in developing the 1199’s “frameless chassis” it’s not an idea they’re willing to abandon so quickly.

I just think the need to have Rossi become competitive as soon as possible outweighed all other considerations. Now that isn’t the case anymore…

jimi

[Raux]

THe other issue with the CF was the actual change process. It took a certain length of time for the design/build/curing process that slowed changes.
The trellis was much easier to adjust, but the consistency wasn't there frame to frame is what Stoner had said.
Perfecting the AL frameless design would allow quicker changes, more consistenty frame to frame.
The computer design and quick prototyping/builds Audi could bring in that realm would be a godsend to a team needing changes week to week.

[derby]

Casey showed that the bike can win, it's just that it takes a specific rider amd style to do so.
His progress might have gotten worse for additional reasons other than the bike. His "lactose intolerance," his frustration with the lack of continued development of the bike, his pendng offer from Honda and maybe just his general dislike of the MotoGp circus...

his performance deteriorated (and his crash count increased) long before his malady and pending move to honda.

I'm not saying it's all in Rossi's head. But if the 1199, in street trim, can lap as fast as the outgoing WSBK bike, can ehre be that much wrong with the basic premise of the CF frame that the concept just out and out will not work in the MotoGP environment?

different tires... the tires used in motogp are like nothing else on the planet.

Correct me if I'm totally wrong, but wasn't one of the driving forces behind the change to an aluminum frame the fact that changes could be made faster then the carbon one? When the first aluminum frame was used wasn't it very similar in design to the carbon one too?

that was one of the reasons... i think one of the main (if not biggest) ones was the cf dampened much the feedback from the front end. they've been chasing front end feel since casey's first year on the bike.

[duccarlos]

The carbon frame had too many drawbacks, all mentioned above. The middle ground of a "frameless" aluminum, to provide more feel might be a better option. Along with the tires, you also have to consider the engine layout. Ducati has attempted to build a twin with a additional cylinders. This causes many balance issues, part of the reason why they tried changing the position. We can't use the 1199 as the base since we're talking about a twin that uses a more traditional tire. Engineers have a lot more constants to work with.

[gm2]

different tires... the tires used in motogp are like nothing else on the planet.

can't underscore that enough.  all the bikes on the grid are literally built around them.


re the cf, front end feedback was the major thing yes.  also very significant was the inconsistency of the material.  they had a hard time getting exactly the same pieces from batch to batch, which made the level of tuning they need to do all the more difficult.
 

[OT]

Casey was crashing his (sabotaged) Honda long before he started crashing his Ducati....

different tires... the tires used in motogp are like nothing else on the planet.

Just ask Ben, if someone doesn't believe it....

[mitt]

CF will come to GP at some point, unless another material that is superior comes about, and assuming the series continues.  It is just a matter of getting it right.  Just look at 4 wheel racing and pro bicycling.

I still think a CF GP Ducati could be a winner if the can figure out the problems.

mitt

[derby]

CF will come to GP at some point, unless another material that is superior comes about, and assuming the series continues.  It is just a matter of getting it right.  Just look at 4 wheel racing and pro bicycling.

I still think a CF GP Ducati could be a winner if the can figure out the problems.

mitt

to be honest, i don't think the f1 guys really iterate new chassis that fast/often.

[OT]

CF will come to GP at some point, unless another material that is superior comes about, and assuming the series continues.  It is just a matter of getting it right.  Just look at 4 wheel racing and pro bicycling.

I still think a CF GP Ducati could be a winner if the can figure out the problems.

mitt

Having worked in CF R&D, I kind of doubt it'll be feasible for 200+ hp racing MCs for a long time...getting CF (i.e., fiber-reinforced plastic) components to behave/flex like metal while still retaining their strength is the holy grail, but that's what's necessary for use in MCs because the farther the MC leans over the more the frame becomes part of the suspension (i.e., acting like shocks and springs to handle bumps and keep the tires on the ground).

[ellingly]

to be honest, i don't think the f1 guys really iterate new chassis that fast/often.

Last few years it's been a part you homologate and need to submit a new design. Ergo, they don't really change chassis too much. They do some form work stuff like modifying holes and stuff to improve/play with aero, but that's it. It's also not something they want flexing, ever, whereas motorcycling dynamics seems to be a lot less well understood & they also do need the chassis to be a bit of a suspension component.