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Author Topic: Some tech questions regarding sprockets and gearing...  (Read 2610 times)
hyphen
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« on: June 25, 2008, 09:20:42 PM »

Now, forgive my ignorance, but I'm not a very technical person (I'm an artist, don't blame me).  From what I've gathered, dropping a tooth overall apparently helps a bike wheelie (my bud was changing out the sprockets on an R6, -1 tooth front and +2 in the rear and said that it would be a wheelie machine).   But what does removing a tooth technically do?  Does a monster require a different rear sprocket as well?

Also, what does it mean when a bike is geared "tall"?  I've heard it a couple times but I didn't bother to ask what it meant. 

And last question (for now) would be, what are the decimal numbers when people are reference the gears?   IE I'll see a chart that lists 1st gear - .435 (some random number) and so on for the other 5 gears. 

Hope someone is patient enough to answer these Tongue
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bigiain
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2008, 12:13:21 AM »

Now, forgive my ignorance, but I'm not a very technical person (I'm an artist, don't blame me).  From what I've gathered, dropping a tooth overall apparently helps a bike wheelie (my bud was changing out the sprockets on an R6, -1 tooth front and +2 in the rear and said that it would be a wheelie machine).   But what does removing a tooth technically do?  Does a monster require a different rear sprocket as well?

Removing a tooth from the front sprocket or adding teeth to the rear lowers the gear ratios, so for the same engine torque you get more force at the back wheel. The downside is you get that force at a lower speed. You know how you bike "pulls harder" in lower gears? "Lowering the gearing" is moving all the gears a little bit "lower". It effectively makes each gear a little closer to the one below it, so 6th gear is a little bit closer to what 5th used to be, 2nd gear is a little bit closer to what 1st used to be (and 1st is, I guess, a little bit closer to what an imaginary gear that was below 1st would have been).

Quote
Also, what does it mean when a bike is geared "tall"?  I've heard it a couple times but I didn't bother to ask what it meant. 

When people use "tall" like that, they're referring to the overall gearing being "high" (the opposite of what I discussed above, where 1st is a little closer to 2nd gear than desired). Lots of bikes (especially Monsters) commonly get accused of coming like this 'cause it helps them pass noise tests (which is a big deal for a manufacturer/importer).

Quote
And last question (for now) would be, what are the decimal numbers when people are reference the gears?   IE I'll see a chart that lists 1st gear - .435 (some random number) and so on for the other 5 gears. 

It's the ratio between the number of teeth on the pair of cogs that engage to make that "gear" - here's a pic of a gearbox in all its internal glory - you can see the 5 pairs of cogs that mesh together ('cause this is a 5 speed box from a 750) - if you counted the teeth for 1st gear (the top right pair) you'd get 40t on the output shaft (the big gear) and 14t on the input shaft, which gives a ratio of 40/14 or 2.857 (sometime expressed as 2.857:1). 5th gear has 28t on the output shaft and 29 on the input, giving 28/29 or 0.966.

The "overall" gear ratio is the "primary drive" ratio (which is the gearing between the crankshaft and the input shaft of the gearbox, 61/33 for my bike), multiplied by the selected gear's ratio (40/14 for 1st, 28/29 for 5th), multiplied by the front and rear sprocket ratio (43/14 on my bike), so the torque I get at my back wheel in 1st is 61/33 * 40/14 * 43/14 or ~16.2 times bigger than the torque at the crankshaft (but turning 16.2 times slower).

When Ducati tell me a 750 makes 62Nm at 6500rpm, 16.2:1 means I'm getting 1005Nm at the back wheel, but only at 401rpm. That means I'd get a force (estimating 0.6m for my wheel radius) of 1675N, or about 170kg (376lb) at 48kmh (30mph) in 1st. In 5th, the overall ratio drops to 5.48, which means I'm only going to get 566N or 58kg (127lb) of force, but I'll get that at 142kmh (89mph).

So, have I confused you even more than you already were?

big
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Bill in OKC
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2008, 06:28:15 AM »

Great Picture!
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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2008, 06:56:26 AM »

... here's a pic of a gearbox in all its internal glory  ...

That was a really good illustrative pic. Thanks big.  waytogo
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hyphen
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« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2008, 11:29:55 AM »

Removing a tooth from the front sprocket or adding teeth to the rear lowers the gear ratios, so for the same engine torque you get more force at the back wheel. The downside is you get that force at a lower speed. You know how you bike "pulls harder" in lower gears? "Lowering the gearing" is moving all the gears a little bit "lower". It effectively makes each gear a little closer to the one below it, so 6th gear is a little bit closer to what 5th used to be, 2nd gear is a little bit closer to what 1st used to be (and 1st is, I guess, a little bit closer to what an imaginary gear that was below 1st would have been).


Hrm, so does that in anyway effect how fast you reach redline? 

Quote
When people use "tall" like that, they're referring to the overall gearing being "high" (the opposite of what I discussed above, where 1st is a little closer to 2nd gear than desired). Lots of bikes (especially Monsters) commonly get accused of coming like this 'cause it helps them pass noise tests (which is a big deal for a manufacturer/importer).

Ahh...

Quote
It's the ratio between the number of teeth on the pair of cogs that engage to make that "gear" - here's a pic of a gearbox in all its internal glory - you can see the 5 pairs of cogs that mesh together ('cause this is a 5 speed box from a 750) - if you counted the teeth for 1st gear (the top right pair) you'd get 40t on the output shaft (the big gear) and 14t on the input shaft, which gives a ratio of 40/14 or 2.857 (sometime expressed as 2.857:1). 5th gear has 28t on the output shaft and 29 on the input, giving 28/29 or 0.966.

The "overall" gear ratio is the "primary drive" ratio (which is the gearing between the crankshaft and the input shaft of the gearbox, 61/33 for my bike), multiplied by the selected gear's ratio (40/14 for 1st, 28/29 for 5th), multiplied by the front and rear sprocket ratio (43/14 on my bike), so the torque I get at my back wheel in 1st is 61/33 * 40/14 * 43/14 or ~16.2 times bigger than the torque at the crankshaft (but turning 16.2 times slower).

When Ducati tell me a 750 makes 62Nm at 6500rpm, 16.2:1 means I'm getting 1005Nm at the back wheel, but only at 401rpm. That means I'd get a force (estimating 0.6m for my wheel radius) of 1675N, or about 170kg (376lb) at 48kmh (30mph) in 1st. In 5th, the overall ratio drops to 5.48, which means I'm only going to get 566N or 58kg (127lb) of force, but I'll get that at 142kmh (89mph).

So, have I confused you even more than you already were?

big

I'm going to have to reread this section when I get home so I can concentrate on it, lol.  There's a lot of foreign terminology involved and I can't work and decipher this stuff at the same time.  Thanks for the lengthy response.  I'll get back to you with more questions when I figure out what you just said, haha.
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printman
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« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2008, 02:07:32 PM »

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Hrm, so does that in anyway effect how fast you reach redline? 

Yes, it will however take top end speed, and will change the rpm range at which you were used to riding.

Think of a ten speed bike or 21 nowadays, where you have it in the middle range where the work being put in (pedaling) is pushing you forward at a good pace.

Now drop one selection on the front gear selector, and you have to pedal really fast to go the same speed, but there is less resistance in your pedaling. and it is easier to wheelie.

For that if you were to go up all the way on the front gear selector, you have to work really hard to get up to speed but can go faster when you are upto speed thsn you were before


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bigiain
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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2008, 04:19:49 PM »

Hrm, so does that in anyway effect how fast you reach redline? 

With lower gearing you get to redline quicker, but you'll be going slower when you get there. It's just like the difference between taking off in 1st or 2nd - you accelerate slower in 2nd gear, but you achieve a higher top speed at redline.

There's a theoretical reduction in top speed in top gear when you lower the gearing, but in practice most bikes can't get to redline in top anyway. There was a guy from a few years back on TOB called Jim Gnetki(sp?) who had some great modelling software that showed even quite radical shortening of the gearing on the low capacity monsters increased the top speed rather than reduced it.

big
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