Are Dry Clutches Becoming Extinct?

[The ModFather]

What makes a Ducati

an Italian Guy in a factory of course.

Besides that I'd say fundamental elements would be style, sound, Trellis Frame, Desmo and the mystique that surrounds the brand.

Although some would say Audi.

[Bill in OKC]

I read that Ducati is going to wet clutches to reduce noise.  Maybe to meet new lower epa noise requirements?  If that is the case then yes dry clutches are becoming extinct.

[ducatiz]

I read that Ducati is going to wet clutches to reduce noise.  Maybe to meet new lower epa noise requirements?  If that is the case then yes dry clutches are becoming extinct.

I've heard the same thing too, but I'm not sure I buy it.  Keeping the cover on with the internal baffle keeps them pretty quiet while they are new.  Could be though, coating the clutch in oil can't NOT dampen it though, but how much?

[thought]

To me... ducs arent built around what kind of frames or clutches they have.  When I think of what it means to ride a duc... it means a bike that sacrifices general comfort and usability in return for a more sporting race bred nature.  From the monsters to the mts's to the sbks... each one was built around the idea of going fast first and then comfort second compared to it's competitors.  Hence, each one will be more annoying, fiddly, generally with ridiculous engine heat... till you start revving it up and riding it like you're supposed to.  It also helps that look like sex on wheels

So yeah, lose the old tech if it's going to keep to that very single minded nature of ducs.  Bonus points if also makes it a bit more comfy, but that's secondary to the nature of the ride.

Though I have to say I never understood the attraction of dry clutches till I got one and opened it up... now it's weird for me to hear a bike without it.

[cmejia1978]

in my humble opinion, ducati to ANY other bike is like a ferrari to a Mustang, you can NOT compare them, they are two different animals, ducati for example is a luxury bike, pleaseee guys let's do admit it that we spend thousands of thousands of dollars in mods (not to say simple maintenance!), I see guys that buy a honda or a yamaha and never ever would consider to do a mod, maybe a Hayabusha or a Termi exhaust and that put their hands to shake, we DUCS? F·$% we DO not do mods we INVENT mods, we get so damn wet just to look at somebody else mod, and please don't ever tell me that you have not even dream about a mod that, for monetary reasons, is just sitting there in the drawer of a desk... as for the dry clutch, I have a wet clutch 2002 620ie monster... BUT yesterday I just bought a 900M Dry clutch in pristine condition which I am gonna put where the wet one is, I know it is a complex mod, I know I need the gear of a 748 as well as oil pump, oil gear, 3 new spacers etc etc... but then again, what the f$%$ do I own? Sorry, MY Ducati owns me I am simply trying to please her in every damn way I can sooooo, as for the noise? Does Ducati think that we are stupid to believe that they are doing it for the noise? We buy the dry clutch precisely for that reason (Super Bike users have "slippy" don't give me the argument that for track use etc etc)  I think that we should consider writing a letter to let them know how we feel about taking away on emblem of our Ducati family, don't you think? AMEN! 

[Privateer]

What will be next on the choping block?

I'd love to go to a belt final drive.

[brimo]

+1

Though i shudder to think of what a monster would look like with out a trelis frame........

something like this?

[The ModFather]

I'd love to go to a belt final drive.

Why? To me motorcycles and chains go hand in hand. Harley's are Belt driven and I think they look ridiculous.

[El-Twin]

something like this?

 

Touche'

I do think the trellis frame has become part of Ducati's image and mystique, though. And it would be great if they always offered at least one model with the dry clutch. Or maybe a dry clutch option.

[Cloner]

I am an engineer actually...

For reference, I never said the SSS was lighter...I said the bike (748) was lighter, and I couldn't feel a difference in rigidity. My 748 with it's heavy ass, old-style design SSS was 15 lbs lighter than my 749 with its apparently lighter DSS...both full of fuel and both in full race trim (i.e., no lights, radiator fans, etc). It's also impossible to argue that a DSS isn't more of a pain in the ass to change a tire than an SSS. If you have to change your own tires, like the majority of racers (i.e., not pro) the SSS has a clear advantage over the DSS for racing as I've noticed first hand.

I get that a dry clutch has less drag, but I'd argue it is negligible unless you're in MotoGP trying to get every last 1/10 hp. Plenty of wet clutch bike do just fine in power when compared to Ducati. Dry clutches also have heavier lever pull than wet clutches, despite any theories on spring stiffness.  I'll take the supposed power loss and lack of quick change ability in exchange for a lighter lever and easier (i.e. smoother & more controlled) launches. My buddies 2003 R6 was FAR FAR easier to launch than my 748 or 749...both of which have high-end slipper clutches.

Theory is great...but I'll take practicality.

Well....I have the similar distinction of being an engineer, a motorcycle racer, and motorcycle mechanic.  I operate a small business called Desert Desmo, so I've changed hundreds or, more likely, thousands of tires over my lifetime.  SSS tires are easier to change.  I've never noticed either to be a significant pain in the ass.  SSS nuts have to be much tighter, requiring a larger torque wrench (you do torque those nuts, don't you?) and specialized tools (who carries those large sockets with them?) to change.  Ever been out in the boonies and lost the rear tire, either to wear or puncture, and had to have one changed?  I have.  A friend on a 1098 was actually stranded in southern Colorado because NOBODY in the area had tools to remove the rear wheel nut on his "new" bike.  However, unless you're running endurance races (or the Daytona 200) you (or, at least, I) don't really care about tire change times and are much more interested in rigidity and weight if you're serious about your avocation.

As to "unless you're running in MotoGP", the arguement should actually be "unless you're running in WSB" where parts have to be H-O-M-O-L-O-G-A-T-E-D.  That means you have to sell the parts you're racing (with exceptions sometimes allowed by rules) on the motorcycle you're racing.  That's where the dry clutch on Superbikes came from.  And, YES, Ducati care about that 1/10 of a HP...actually a little more than 1/10... along with entailed reduced weight.  Dry clutches on the other models was simply a marketing gimmick.

Also, as to weight....Ducati's published materials claim 748 to weigh 430 dry, and 749 to weigh 410 dry.....a 20 pound reduction.  748R is 422.5 pounds dry to 749R at 404.5 dry for a less obvious 18 pound reduction.  I never weighed them side by side in factory trim.  I never raced either model.  However, I'll lay odds that beginning with similar models (monoposto or R for both) and given similar prep the 749 would weigh less.

Clutch "pull" is a function of both the springs that engage the clutch and the mechanism that disengages them.  As an engineer I can say with fair certainty that I can design a dry clutch using less spring pressure than a wet clutch to drive a mechanism given a set amount of power to transmit, unless you know of some way to get higher friction in oil than in air.  There is no guarantee that Ducati (or any other manufacturer) use the lightest springs practical for any assembly, as they must account for a greater range of operating conditions and other factors in building street bikes.  I can also say with certainty that if I was designing a street bike I'd use a wet clutch for noise abatement and maintenance reasons.  Dry clutches can launch as well as wet clutches when they're set up correctly....but when they chatter they're a PITA.  Practicallity be damned in this case, the purpose of the dry clutch assembly was to win races.  

And, finally, if you're a fan of practicality why are you riding a Ducati?  They've NEVER been considered practical, even my the most liberal definition of the word!

[NorDog]

Why? To me motorcycles and chains go hand in hand. Harley's are Belt driven and I think they look ridiculous.

Perhaps, but they have all the convenience of a shaft drive without the weight.

When you look at an HD belt you see ridiculousness.

When I look at one I see more time riding and less time adjusting, cleaning, or replacing.

[Triple J]

@ Cloner

I don't find the large nut and torque values to be a problem, but I do carry the necessary socket with me. I would agree that a 4 bolt system like the VFR or Guzzi would be easier than the giant nut though. I still prefer the SSS. I personally can't notice a difference in rigidity, and I appreciate the ease of changing wheels and gearing...especially wheels when the race day starts off dry, and then it begins to rain 30 minute before my race. Ah, the joys of racing in the Pacific Northwest!  

I've weighed both my bikes. 2002 748S = 400 lbs, 2006 749S = 415 lbs (both ready to race with fuel). I don't care what Ducati's PR data says. That's what my scale says. My 748 did have OZ wheels...but that was only about a 5 lb savings, so say it weighed 405 lbs at most. The point is...I don't see the SSS weight penalty as being significant.

I don't buy the dry clutch horsepower argument. I understand the reasoning, and agree there is likely a slight advantage...but ALL of the bikes in WSBK except the Ducati have wet clutches...and they all make more horsepower than the Ducs. The 1199 has a wet clutch and makes more hp than any previous dry clutch model (and also weighs less). I know, different motor configurations, blah, blah. To me it's a non-issue. I just prefer wet (except for looks) and don't see a real advantage to dry. I mentioned MotoGP because they all have dry clutches there (the factory bikes anyway).

Touche on racing a Duc; however, racing in itself isn't a very practical endeavor! I just like Ducatis.  

[duccarlos]

Someone had too much coffee today <cough>Cloner</cough>

[NorDog]

I don't find the large nut and torque values to be a problem, but I do carry the necessary socket with me.

I wear mine aroung my neck on a chain.   

[Duck-Stew]

Someone had too much coffee today <cough>Cloner</cough>

As someone who knows (and works with Cloner) regularly, he's like this just about every day.