Good form vs bad form - photos

[manwithgun]

Besides addressing ground clearance, lean angle, and tire profile,  proper "hanging off" is the only way to get enough weight onto the front tire for particular bikes, set-ups, corners, and speed.   This does not apply to all motorcycles, but I've been on bikes before where stretching my neck out to get my chin just a bit farther forward is what it took to keep the front tire from pushing...    Motorcycles are awesome!

[SwiftTone]

They usually promote hanging off to make it a habit for when/if it becomes a requirement.

I'm locked on and very stabil because I don't hang off  Grip pads and custom tank center hump help me with that.

My point isn't about me. It's about how many/most riders don't gain anything by hanging off, but since it's a sensible idea to make it a habit for when/if they become fast enough...

The instability is obvious though (mostly during braking and exit).

To be stable when hanging off one needs to lock the outside leg by pushing it against the cut out in the tank by leveraging the pegs. It takes some getting use to because it uses muscles usually not used.

[SwiftTone]

How the heck do I post photos!!

[Triple J]

Link them through something like photobucket.

[SwiftTone]

I would have to link it to the whole page though, not just the photo...right?

[Slide Panda]

Either would work. but if you have the URL for the image, you can post that inside the correct formatting tags

One of the buttons above the text window when you reply will pop in the tags for you, and just paste the url between them

[koko64]

Any of you motard guys got any techniques to practice for quick canyon riding? Its the ride postion thats throwing me.
I am used to track racing sport bikes and dont have a dirt background. Its like changing from boxing to MMA. I guess organizing my body positioning to get the bike leaned is my issue. It feels awfully high up with a precarious high centre of gravity. I will work on drills this Spring with any suggestions.
Cheers.

[Slide Panda]

Push it down? Or hang off? What's your flavor?

[koko64]

Im ok hanging off on sweeping corners and long fast corners, but the tight stuff is throwing me. I may have to learn the push it down, dirt bike drop for tight corners. I just have no confidence with that at present.    I hang off knee down on my Gixxer and can push it under through tight esses to set up for the exit corner drive, but Im still learning where to anchor myself on this giant chook chaser. Like learning another language.
Actually hanging off sportsbike style might initially help my confidence. Im having trouble getting down low on this thing. In some corners Im quicker than on a sportsbike, but the tight stuff has been difficult for this old dog to learn new tricks.

[SwiftTone]

Riding the new track in Palmer, MA on a new to me bike. Damn this bike is fun! By mid morning I was riding close to midpack in the intermediate group.

I can see that I might be hanging off too much on lefts turns but that was because I was concerned with ground clearance. Now I know clearance is not an issue and I think I will hang off less in the future, but it is fun! Constructive criticism is welcome. Gotta figure it out and get on my toes more. Although it doesn't look like it, I was working on gripping the bars like a screwdriver to get my shoulds points in and help with getting my upper body lower.

And GoPro of one of the earlier sessions.



Hanging off too much perhaps. I can hang off less to give my outer arm more slack to use for leveraging the bars for maneuvers.


I think this one is almost on the money. Constructive criticisms welcome.


Slightly crossed up, and toes hanging low (damn exhaust) so need to get on more toes more.

[Triple J]

Not bad Swift! 

My main recommendation would be to try to get your upper body lower, as you look like you're sitting fairly upright. Like you said, you don't need to hang off that much...one butt cheek off the seat is enough. Not a big deal though IMO. It's important that your comfortable, so if you are, then all is good. The good news is you aren't crossed up. You are a little on the right hander, but not terrible. How good my form is depends on the corner...long, fast ones and I look pretty good - slower, tight ones and I tend to be crossed up (like a lot of riders).

I wouldn't worry about your feet either. What your doing is OK. When you start dragging your toes you'll figure out a way to tuck your foot in more.

[manwithgun]

Any of you motard guys got any techniques to practice for quick canyon riding? Its the ride postion thats throwing me.
I am used to track racing sport bikes and dont have a dirt background. Its like changing from boxing to MMA. I guess organizing my body positioning to get the bike leaned is my issue. It feels awfully high up with a precarious high centre of gravity. I will work on drills this Spring with any suggestions.
Cheers.

   I'm assuming that you're talking about riding a Hypermotard which unfortunately I have not yet had the pleasure of flogging.   Although the handlebars, seating, and foot positions are similar to what we use in supermoto,  the massive weight difference coupled to the fact that it still has roadracing DNA and an L-twin (where supermoto bikes tend to be motocross based, lighter, and naturally more nimble) makes me unsure if "foot out" style would be much better on anything but tight kart tracks.  Still might be a hoot though.  Here are a couple of casual vids from a local supermoto school that covers a few of the basics...


 and


   As technology and grip have improved, the elite riders don't tend to move their butts too far off to the outside as might have been the norm in days past.  For examples, look up any Luc1 video and branch out from there.   
   In comparing the two styles, I am able to ride my 450 supermoto bike at similar solo lap times at many tracks but the bike requires a set-up change to do so.  In simple terms, knee out puts more weight on the front tire and can be balanced by raising the front end (lowering forks in triples).   Riding foot out is more neutral to rear and so I lower the front end.  In a standard race situation I feel that  foot out is far superior for both attacking and defending where swooping momentum lines are complimented by knee down style.  But no matter how you ride, if you're having a good time doing it, you can't be too far off...
   You mentioned issues with body position and leaning, as well as feeling "a precarious high centre of gravity".   I'd suggest researching and practicing counter-steering and how it pertains to quick flicking/turning a motorcycle.   With both the ground clearance and handlebar leverage that you have, the high center of gravity should actually will work to your advantage and possibly eliminate the need to even move a muscle off of centerline, for all but the most extreme corners.  In a nutshell, to flick a bike to the right, I would PUSH the right bar FORWARD, causing the bike to fall/drop to the right, then transition into a normal steering input to catch, control, and complete the turn.  As your speed increases, so does the amount of force required to flick the bike and initiate the lean. (I tend to be a "puller" but am told that it's a bad habit...)  Whether you are aware of the physics behind it or not, setting up a simple slalom course with cones or cans is a sure way to familiarize yourself with slinging a bike around to the point where it becomes second nature.
   

[koko64]

Thanks MWG.
Im actually a pretty hard countersteerer. I guess Im struggling with being sò high "up there". Im gonna practice crawling all over the bike, getting my torso low and finding anchor points. Its probably just all in my head and requiring the appropriate desensitization program.

[manwithgun]

Just do it exactly like this guy... (I know it's not N.Hayden)



He has a pretty exaggerated form at times but does not seem to have to move his butt or torso much while transitioning from corner to corner.  The onboard footage is also a fine example of soft hands (vs. death grip) and clutch work.

Just noticed that at the 4:40 mark is an example of what some call a hip flick which uses the outside knee of the current corner for steering leverage as you transition into an opposing corner.

[koko64]

Cool vid. I will go with traditional hanging off first to build my confidence as that's what this old dog knows. The vid shows it can be done quite smoothly actually. I notice the taller riders get knee down easily on these tall motards. Im 5'8" with ducks disease, so I'll work on my anchor points.
Cheers.