do these symptoms suggest I need a valve adjustment? Edit: or bent valve?

[Rudemouthsky]

Sorry if it seems like I'm ignoring all of your very helpful suggestions and advice but at this point I've been at the mercy of the dealer, they have both heads off my bike. I need to tread carefully with them unfortunately, frustrating as it is. I can't go back in time and undo bringing it there.

I'm now being told my engine has signs of ridiculously high miles and valves are slightly bent, espec in the vert cylinder.

Everyone here seems to agree the bike just needs to be tuned, and yes it certainly would seem so.

I'm doing my best to take the never ending BS I'm getting from these people and process it into something that actually makes sense, hence why I keep asking redundant questions instead of just TUNING MY DAMN BIKE, which is probably what it needs.

The latest brilliant diagnosis is that "my engine is worn out". That worn valves are making it impossible to carburete correctly therefore I need to have my valves replaced.

Like I said they have my bike in pieces...I never authorized them to do so, but they have me over a barrel. All I can do is try to hustle them into giving me the bike back or miraculously fixing it. The poor service manager is promising not to charge me for all the misdiagostics. I guess we'll see.

But yeah, that's the latest news. I still don't have the bike back and now both heads are removed. Might be almost time for a lawyer.

[ducpainter]

Tell them to put it back to the state it was when you brought it in...running...not leaking oil...

and get it out of there.

You never authorized any disassembly, and they can't charge you for it or reassembly.

Pay the $250 you spoke of earlier and cut your losses.

BTW...you never posted the results of the leak down test they performed.

[Rudemouthsky]

Tell them to put it back to the state it was when you brought it in...running...not leaking oil...

and get it out of there.

You never authorized any disassembly, and they can't charge you for it or reassembly.

Pay the $250 you spoke of earlier and cut your losses.

BTW...you never posted the results of the leak down test they performed.

I don't have the results. Just got off the phone with the GM. I'll resume this tomorrow after a few 

[Howie]

Tell them to put it back to the state it was when you brought it in...running...not leaking oil...

and get it out of there.

You never authorized any disassembly, and they can't charge you for it or reassembly.

Pay the $250 you spoke of earlier and cut your losses.

BTW...you never posted the results of the leak down test they performed.

I'm not sure if I would want to give them the opportunity to make things worse.  I would consider showing up with a truck, some friends and assorted containers for the parts and get the bike out of there.  Offer them the $250 by certified check or credit card.  Do consult a lawyer before following my advice.

[silas]

good luck!
Brad is correct of course...my bike wouldn't idle or run w/ a bent valve. (my fault...darn long glove fingers)

My mech found me a used valve for $20-30 fyi.

[Rudemouthsky]

Brad..Howie...Tony...Nate...everyone...

How "true" are the exhaust valves? as in, would you consider 1mm (one) to be severely "bent"? Is there any tolerance whatsoever? In your opinion would a bike start, run, and idle?

"the intake valves were seated well enough, which is why the leakdown test was inconclusive. However your vert exhaust valve is bent by 1mm and we consider that severe." - The technician.

Had a VERY fun convo with the owner of the dealership today. I'm feeling good.

[Speeddog]

A 1mm bend in an exhaust valve is severe.

As Brad said, it wouldn't idle with a bent valve, and would be very difficult to start.

That statement about the leakdown is a bit odd, as a conventional leakdown test will find issues with intake and exhaust valves, and ring seal.

[Dirty Duc]

No details on the leakdown?
[cough]bullshit[cough]
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0406_cylinder_leakdown_tester/

The second page has the good info.

[ducpainter]

A properly performed leak down test will detect a bent valve...and would indicate which valve...period. I don't think they did one.

A simple compression test would indicate that cylinder sorely lacking compression...period. The exact issue would not be able to be determined without a teardown. I don't think they did one of those either.

If they had done either of these tests they would have come right out and told you the motor had a problem based on the results of the test.

How did your valves go from 'worn' to 'bent'?

Something is very wrong here.

[brad black]

I wouldn't worry about the cough.  seems pretty obvious to me.

really, 1mm is way bent.  it tightens closing clearance and opens opening clearance a huge amount too.

[Rudemouthsky]

I wouldn't worry about the cough.  seems pretty obvious to me.

really, 1mm is way bent.  it tightens closing clearance and opens opening clearance a huge amount too.

I was told that the valve clearances were checked, and adjusted accordingly. If I'm understanding you correctly Brad, this would be impossible with a valve that is bent 1mm?

The full quote from the email;

"We are proposing that for economical reasons we repair only what is actually broken. Please be aware that the engine has clear signs of wear, with characteristics of a very high mileage motor.  What we mean by this is in addition to your broken parts, you have other items in the bike that could be addressed or may need to be addressed eventually in the future. These parts include: piston rings, light scoring on pistons and cylinder walls, wear on con-rod bearings and piston wrist pin bush. These items are within the tolerances that Ducati describes in the service manuals, however they are towards the end of the tolerance range for permissible operating values. While this items do not need replaced currently, they will affect overall performance of the vehicle either way unless completely replaced. To replace all of these parts is obviously a significant cost and one I assume is something you do not want to undertake at this time.

momentary pause; a good friend, who was a technician at Cascade Porsche/Audi for ten years, owned World Imports in Kent, OH and has rebuilt dozens of British bikes helped me examine the engine while it was on the bench and is absolutely incenced at this statement. He raved about the condition of the engine and called the above statement "stand operating bullshit" /PAUSE



"In regards to the damaged components that are part of what is creating your issues, please review our recommendations as well as the standard procedure in which we perform these tests and actions below. We think this is the most economical way get your bike to the point where it is more efficient and running better than it was when you brought it in. To be clear, this will not be the highest horsepower monster we ever have had, because even in repairing the damage components, the motor still has significant 'wear and tear' as we mentioned above. This is by no means an issue, as that is not your concern, but it is something that we still want to be very upfront and transparent about.



We have found the exhaust valves in both cylinders to be bent and leaking cylinder pressure. In addition, both intake valves are recessed on the valve face and we recommend replacement. The Intakes are seated well enough, giving reason as to why a leak down test did not show blatant valve issues immediately.  The vertical cylinder  exhaust valve is more bent than the horizontal thus causing fueling and spark plug issues you were experiencing in tandem with your weak coil. Lack of compression and blow back past the valves causes fueling issues in carbs (which are functioning properly). To clarify, a bike can run with valve bent up to 1mm off its seat. Your vertical exhaust valve is bent about 1mm and Stan considers this severely bent.



The diagnostic procedure for these running issues are as follows:

1) Check valve clearances/ cam timing-if valve clearances are good, then move on to further diagnostic. If valves are tight, it will cause running/fueling problems.

2) Inspect Carbs for defects-as mentioned above, issues with valves can cause carb issues and thus why we start with the valve inspection.

3) Leak down test although not always conclusive.

4) Check ignition system

5) Disassembly head(s) to visually inspect for bent or burned valves and damage in the rings, bore and pistons."


Guys, thanks again. The posterity of the info in this thread is going to help a lot of people from here on out. I have a suspicion that they are trying to cover their asses with all this talk about how awful my motor looks. I brought them a bike that started well, idled well, and accelerated well. My issues with the power were minor, what I was seeking help with was the fouling vert plug. I'm concerned that they turned my bike into a basket case.

But I'm not sweating things too much *yet*. This forum has given me all the tools I need to proceed. In 37 years very few people have gotten the better of me, and I don't plan on letting it happen now.

[brad black]

hello bucket load of bullshit.

sorry, but that kind of stuff gets to me.

so the engine is in bits?  have they removed the rods to give you their assessment of the big end bearings?

I don't really understand how it got to this point.

a leak down test is conclusive.  air leaks from the crankcase breather, muffler or carb inlet.  simple.  you can hear and feel even low leak down.  if it had bent valves it would have had a lot of leakdown.

did they give you a measurement on ring end gap?

[Rudemouthsky]

hello bucket load of bullshit.

sorry, but that kind of stuff gets to me.

so the engine is in bits?  have they removed the rods to give you their assessment of the big end bearings?

I don't really understand how it got to this point.

a leak down test is conclusive.  air leaks from the crankcase breather, muffler or carb inlet.  simple.  you can hear and feel even low leak down.  if it had bent valves it would have had a lot of leakdown.

did they give you a measurement on ring end gap?

The big end bearing *is* the con rod bearing, yes? How can that be assessed without pulling the engine and opening it up...because AFAIK these asshats only removed the heads.

[ducpainter]

Yes, the big end is the connecting rod and the cases would need to be split to assess.

The wrist pin is the small end and would require the piston to be removed from the rod to assess.

They're making shit up.

[Howie]

I wonder if the valves are bent now?  Get that bike out of there.