Road Rage on Mandeville Canyon...

[sqweak]

where do you draw the line between exercising your right to ride your bicycle on city streets and "acting like you own the road"?

For me, this is crossing the line:

running stop signs/lights, riding in a traffic causing peloton anywhere other than a bike race, using a car lane in the presence of a bike line, picking and choosing which rules you follow and which you break for your conveience/rhythm/etc.

COURTESY would be to move to the far right single file, but there is no law mandating that (other than maybe "obstructing traffic").

I don't know why you say "maybe" here.  A slower moving vehicle obstructing traffic is a traffic hazard and should be cited.

Wow, I can't help it but think how car drivers and bicyclists see us motorcyclists when we take over the damn road....... [moto] [moto] which, let's face it, sometimes we do..........let the weekend rides begin  .

Funny you mention that as just Weds I was in the cage and caught in the middle of a Sportbike crew of ~50 headed to Hollywood Bike Night as they merged on to the freeway.  Accidents between them vs themselves, them vs cars, and cars vs cars were just *nearly* missed as they swarmed in and out of traffic on their way to the HOV lane.  It made really sit back and think the same thing you just mentioned.

[darylbowden]

1) it's illegal to ride bikes on sidewalks

I don't know what that has to do with anything, but OK.  I remember that law from my youth.

2) bikes have every bit the right to be on "streets" as cars

Nobody said they didn't.  Just saying that the primary use of a street isn't for bicycle traffic.

but they DO have to follow vehicle codes/laws

See below...

now, if the conversation is about them running redlights or stopsigns or something, yeah, they're breaking the law... but if they're just going slower than the guy behind 'em in the joyvagen wants to go, that's still legal.

See below...

COURTESY would be to move to the far right single file, but there is no law mandating that (other than maybe "obstructing traffic").

No maybe about it.  Just as a car can be cited for traveling below the posted speed limit, a pack of bicyclists occupying an entire lane can be as well.  Which goes back to your point about them having to follow vehicle codes/laws.

[hbliam]

COURTESY would be to move to the far right single file, but there is no law mandating that (other than maybe "obstructing traffic").

Yep, 22400 CVC - Impede traffic.

If the bikes are such a problem, then the residents need to go to their City Council and insist that the local PD start citing the cyclists.

As far as the Dr.. He won't lose his license but hopefully they charged him with 245(a)(1) PC - Assault with a deadly weapon. The 30K bail sounds about right.

[COWBOY]

The Dr. pulled a stunt and it backfired.  Don't any of you try and tell me you've never stopped short on another car to scare them and "teach them a lesson."  Equating that move to wanting or planning to kill someone is a stretch.  Reckless yes, felony assault nah.  Besides how does a bike going 30-35mph not see and either a. stop or b. avoid a "4000 pound object" unless they were riding in an unsafe manner and/or pattern and couldn't do so without getting hit by another rider as well?

The whole lot of them - riders and Doctor - are morons and defending either is equally moronic.   

And if I read one more whiney ass they're entitled BS post i'm going to vomit.  These guys are squids with pedals and spandex.  We have them here too.  They ride in groups with no regard for anyone around them or their own safety.  While that's all well and good when you get away with it, we all learned on the playground that the attitude of "I'm going to do this because no one would dare hit me" is a painful one to have once someone does hit us. 

Like with most Squids some lessons need to be learned the hard way.  Here's a surprise for all you pedal pushers = they're all out to kill you, ride like it and lose the attitude.

 

[Gus Duc]

The Dr. pulled a stunt and it backfired.  Don't any of you try and tell me you've never stopped short on another car to scare them and "teach them a lesson."  Equating that move to wanting or planning to kill someone is a stretch.  Reckless yes, felony assault nah.  Besides how does a bike going 30-35mph not see and either a. stop or b. avoid a "4000 pound object" unless they were riding in an unsafe manner and/or pattern and couldn't do so without getting hit by another rider as well?

The whole lot of them - riders and Doctor - are morons and defending either is equally moronic.   

And if I read one more whiney ass they're entitled BS post i'm going to vomit.  These guys are squids with pedals and spandex.  We have them here too.  They ride in groups with no regard for anyone around them or their own safety.  While that's all well and good when you get away with it, we all learned on the playground that the attitude of "I'm going to do this because no one would dare hit me" is a painful one to have once someone does hit us. 

Like with most Squids some lessons need to be learned the hard way.  Here's a surprise for all you pedal pushers = they're all out to kill you, ride like it and lose the attitude.

 

You sound like a nice open minded guy

According to you I'm a pedal pushing spandex wearing moron who should lose the attitude or prepare to die...... nice......

[COWBOY]

You sound like a nice open minded guy

According to you I'm a pedal pushing spandex wearing moron who should lose the attitude or prepare to die...... nice......

since you obviously can't follow a thought, read a paragraph or paraphrase me; we'll discuss your statement above.

If you ride that way yeah - you and the rest of the squids are playing with fire.  Why is it you feel you're enabled to ride anyway you want with no risk just because you're pushing your pedals as opposed to twisting your wrist?  Ride your bike that way and we'll be reading about your wreck in crash analysis.  Just do us a favor and don't blame the cagers or society for your failure to take appropriate precautions and riding like a Squid.

That's not hoping or wishing it on you - that's just the odds your dealt given your decision of riding behavior.  As I said ride like they're out to kill you, whether pushing pedals or twisting your wrist, because they are.  If you don't you may end up pushing petals instead.  I sincerely hope your simply attempting to bait me into an argument and not defending that riding mentality.  The odds are stacked against it.

As far as my openmindedness, If being closed minded means not following the herd denouncing someone despite reckless behavior then i'll wear that tag as a badge of honor.  I always call it like I see it. i'm not looking for your or anyone else's approval.

[Ducatiloo]

since you obviously can't follow a thought, read a paragraph or paraphrase me; we'll discuss your statement above.

If you ride that way yeah - you and the rest of the squids are playing with fire.  Why is it you feel you're enabled to ride anyway you want with no risk just because you're pushing your pedals as opposed to twisting your wrist?  Ride your bike that way and we'll be reading about your wreck in crash analysis.  Just do us a favor and don't blame the cagers or society for your failure to take appropriate precautions and riding like a Squid.

That's not hoping or wishing it on you - that's just the odds your dealt given your decision of riding behavior.  As I said ride like they're out to kill you, whether pushing pedals or twisting your wrist, because they are.  If you don't you may end up pushing petals instead.  I sincerely hope your simply attempting to bait me into an argument and not defending that riding mentality.  The odds are stacked against it.

As far as my openmindedness, If being closed minded means not following the herd denouncing someone despite reckless behavior then i'll wear that tag as a badge of honor.  I always call it like I see it. i'm not looking for your or anyone else's approval.

+1 

[Gus Duc]

since you obviously can't follow a thought, read a paragraph or paraphrase me; we'll discuss your statement above.

If you ride that way yeah - you and the rest of the squids are playing with fire.  Why is it you feel you're enabled to ride anyway you want with no risk just because you're pushing your pedals as opposed to twisting your wrist?  Ride your bike that way and we'll be reading about your wreck in crash analysis.  Just do us a favor and don't blame the cagers or society for your failure to take appropriate precautions and riding like a Squid.

That's not hoping or wishing it on you - that's just the odds your dealt given your decision of riding behavior.  As I said ride like they're out to kill you, whether pushing pedals or twisting your wrist, because they are.  If you don't you may end up pushing petals instead.  I sincerely hope your simply attempting to bait me into an argument and not defending that riding mentality.  The odds are stacked against it.

As far as my openmindedness, If being closed minded means not following the herd denouncing someone despite reckless behavior then i'll wear that tag as a badge of honor.  I always call it like I see it. i'm not looking for your or anyone else's approval.

The point I took from your post was you were sick of whiners in spandex who break the law...... that's an absurd statement to make about cyclists as a whole...... you know how many motorists think of motorcyclists that way.... probably as many or more than cyclists.  To me, an attitude like that won't get you far & is amazing coming from someone who rides a motorcycle & is subjected to similiar drivers on a daily basis.

Try stopping your Monster if a car pulled quicly in front of you....... I bet even that guy's old Infinity will stop much quicker & more controlled than your Monster regardless of the mods.  These guys were riding down a slight hill at the posted speed limit, they noticed the car & went single file as far to the right as possible & then after nearly getting hit by the driver & yelling at him, got brake checked & one went thru his window & the other went almost over the whole car..... gain these guys weren't racing weren't in a large group at that point of their ride & weren't breaking any laws......

I still ride my bicycle a fair amount & always make a point to be respectful of the rules of the road as well as my surrondings.  I'm not upset when I have a close call as I expect them...... many people just don't see me on my bike or my motorcycle... when they go out of their way to buzz me then I have a problem but again I let it go because to me I ridde both to have a good time, not to puick a fight

I don't feel that anybody owes me anything on the bike or the motorcycle & I'm not looking for anything from you either....... you have every right to have a different opinion & I respect that....... I just don't like blanket statements coming ffrom someone that doesn't ride a bicycle in a big city like I do & encounter what I do when I ride it.

I do know we shrare similar tastes in motorcycles though

[Ducatiloo]

I'm sick of spandexers that ride against traffic, run stop lights/signs cutting off cars and motorcyclist in the process.  Then having the nerve to give the person they almost hit due to their disregard of the law a dirty look.  The majority of the bicyclists in my area that are commuting are all going to the same place.  And I have observed the majority of them all behaving in this manner.  There will always be on or two idiots wither they be in cars, cycles or pedal bikes.  When the majority of any group starts behaving this way there is an issue.  Plus it hurts the image of the very product that the company they are commuting to is selling.

Also the Dr is in no way in the right, what he did was wrong and no one, not me, not Cowboy supports his actions.   This thread has become a dialog to discuss how we as Motorcycles, which have similar issues with cars, feel about how our pedal compadres actions have fired up a large portion of the the community.

[darylbowden]

The Dr. pulled a stunt and it backfired.  Don't any of you try and tell me you've never stopped short on another car to scare them and "teach them a lesson."  Equating that move to wanting or planning to kill someone is a stretch.  Reckless yes, felony assault nah.  Besides how does a bike going 30-35mph not see and either a. stop or b. avoid a "4000 pound object" unless they were riding in an unsafe manner and/or pattern and couldn't do so without getting hit by another rider as well?

The whole lot of them - riders and Doctor - are morons and defending either is equally moronic.   

And if I read one more whiney ass they're entitled BS post i'm going to vomit.  These guys are squids with pedals and spandex.  We have them here too.  They ride in groups with no regard for anyone around them or their own safety.  While that's all well and good when you get away with it, we all learned on the playground that the attitude of "I'm going to do this because no one would dare hit me" is a painful one to have once someone does hit us. 

Like with most Squids some lessons need to be learned the hard way.  Here's a surprise for all you pedal pushers = they're all out to kill you, ride like it and lose the attitude.

 

Ok, I'll tell you.  I've never stopped short on another car.  

Have you ever tried to stop a bicycle from 35 mph going downhill on a 2-lane road? Obviously not or you wouldn't have made such an ignorant statement as you did above.  Cars stop much faster than pushies, and since there's only one lane each way and on one side of that lane is a huge dropoff, it's pretty easy to see how they couldn't avoid it or stop in time.

[Gus Duc]

I'm sick of spandexers that ride against traffic, run stop lights/signs cutting off cars and motorcyclist in the process.  Then having the nerve to give the person they almost hit due to their disregard of the law a dirty look.  The majority of the bicyclists in my area that are commuting are all going to the same place.  And I have observed the majority of them all behaving in this manner.  There will always be on or two idiots wither they be in cars, cycles or pedal bikes.  When the majority of any group starts behaving this way there is an issue.  Plus it hurts the image of the very product that the company they are commuting to is selling.

Also the Dr is in no way in the right, what he did was wrong and no one, not me, not Cowboy supports his actions.   This thread has become a dialog to discuss how we as Motorcycles, which have similar issues with cars, feel about how our pedal compadres actions have fired up a large portion of the the community.

Agreed

Just don't lump me into the category of law breakers beacuse I choose to ride a bike & wer spandex

[Bad Dog]

Gee Whiz, I've been Cycling, Riding and, oh yes,
Driving for over 44 years; still alive, enjoying it all.....
an' still breathing.....
I guess I know how to be, huh guys?
It's simple shit.....
think about it.
Don't just mouth off.....


until you've done it all.


 

[COWBOY]

So we're clear the points to be made were:

1. Pedal groups ride en mass with an aggressive entitlement attitude and flaunt traffic laws and safety routinely.
2."Like with most Squids some lessons need to be learned the hard way.  Here's a surprise for all you pedal pushers = they're all out to kill you, ride like it and lose the attitude."

The point I took from your post was you were sick of whiners in spandex who break the law...... that's an absurd statement to make about cyclists as a whole...... you know how many motorists think of motorcyclists that way.... probably as many or more than cyclists.  To me, an attitude like that won't get you far & is amazing coming from someone who rides a motorcycle & is subjected to similiar drivers on a daily basis.

I certainly do feel that way and the actions of the local clubs and YMCA packs here bear this out.  Many afternoons as I ride my Duc i come on these groups and I have to ride the yellow or cross it to get safely by even on the bike.  Cars just stack up behind them many deep until the group turns or traffic on the other side of the road presents an opportunity to pass desite the double yellow.  Doing it on a quiet country road is one thing doing it on busy city streets is another especially between 3 and 6pm.  As a rider, bike or pedal, it is the responsibility of the rider to adjust his/her ride to the conditions not the other way around.  I expect nothing more from them than is expected of me.

Try stopping your Monster if a car pulled quicly in front of you....... I bet even that guy's old Infinity will stop much quicker & more controlled than your Monster regardless of the mods.  These guys were riding down a slight hill at the posted speed limit, they noticed the car & went single file as far to the right as possible & then after nearly getting hit by the driver & yelling at him, got brake checked & one went thru his window & the other went almost over the whole car..... gain these guys weren't racing weren't in a large group at that point of their ride & weren't breaking any laws......

First stopping a car or motorcycle and stopping a 10-30lb bike are two different stories all together.  I will grant that it's possible the Doc gave them no way out (and yes Darryl I have riden a bike downhill and stopped it.  I've also high sided as a result of trying to stop too fast which was a good (and hard) lesson to learn before I got the Duc with regards to gear.)  Is it also possible that these guys failed some basic safe riding techniques we all use everyday?

Looking at this by applying the safe riding techniques and lessons we use to survive every day and count the number of mistakes just from what was in the article.  1.  they impeded traffic by riding slower and initially blocking traffic.  2.  they weren't aware of what was happening behind them (bikes have mirrors right?).  3.  they yelled obscenities at the car as he went by (road rage is dumb but picking a fight with someone in a "4000 pound weapon" is stupid).   I'll grant the possibility that the Doc could have swerved in a manner as to not give them any escape but can you say they rode in a manner as to provide themselves a way out?  slowed their pass to give the car room? changed lane position? better positioned themselves in relation to each other?  To say these guys were innocent victims is nuts. 

Did they deserve to get sent through a window? Nope.  Do they bear at least some responsibility for putting themselves in that position?  You bet your ass - just as I would if I had done the same on my Duc.

I still ride my bicycle a fair amount & always make a point to be respectful of the rules of the road as well as my surrondings.  I'm not upset when I have a close call as I expect them...... many people just don't see me on my bike or my motorcycle... when they go out of their way to buzz me then I have a problem but again I let it go because to me I ridde both to have a good time, not to puick a fight

That's refreshing.  Wish more here would do the same when they ride with others.  I've never had or seen an issue with individual riders just pairs or groups which is why I specifically singled groups out in my post.  It's also good to read because honestly the hardest posts to see and the ones that stick in my head the longest are the crash posts.  The fewer of those the better IMO, which is why the point of my post was to "...ride like they're trying to kill you because they are..."

I don't feel that anybody owes me anything on the bike or the motorcycle & I'm not looking for anything from you either....... you have every right to have a different opinion & I respect that....... I just don't like blanket statements coming ffrom someone that doesn't ride a bicycle in a big city like I do & encounter what I do when I ride it.

I do know we shrare similar tastes in motorcycles though

If you're on the road it's a 2 way street.  Those of us who have to deal with pedalers and groups have as much to say and our points are of equal value to the impact on traffic as you riders.  To think otherwise is nothing short of arrogance.  From your posts on the forum you seem to be a pretty good guy.  Could be the issue is an personal/emotional one so I won't press it. 

We share some other tastes as well but motorcycles and survival riding are certainly tops.

Pardon the long post.

Cheers.

[Ducatiloo]

Agreed

Just don't lump me into the category of law breakers beacuse I choose to ride a bike & wer spandex

We all wear spandex from time to time 
And yes I have a Trek bike.

[darylbowden]

Uhm - actually, I haven't.

I live on a narrow, windy, favorite bicycle road in LA.  I've also clocked many, may Malibu canyon miles on my motorcycles.  Rarely ever had a problem with cyclists and if the odd one did display an attitude, gently rolling on the gas and pulling away helped solve the "problem".

I have zero sympathy for the cyclist.  Should've kept his trap shut instead of escalating the situation.  However, in my non-expert opinion, felony assault sounds about right for the doc.  If you're gonna live in the big city, you're going to have to expect to slow down and wait for others every once and so often.  If that doesn't agree with your temper, don't get behind the wheel of a car.

Hey, I have a novel idea: everybody relax and leave everybody else alone  [moto]

-R.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel about it - just encapsulated a whole lot better.