1100evo Hot Start Fail

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Anyone know of a source for a 2012 1100evo starter other than the dealer?

The starter will turn over the motor for a cold start, although noticeably slower. Have swapped out the cables for larger gauge, two new batteries, and all of the troubleshooting (resistances and voltage drops). Even installed a new sprag. It still will not start hot and draws around 400 amps when doing so. Even disassembled the solenoid and saw that the contacts looked like new.

Rick's just replied that they could not help me because the starter is a Taigene, not a Denso. Seems that Ducati changed to Taigene from Denso when they went to the evo motor. Looks the same, but internals must be different.

My wallet will feel greatly offended if I have to buy one from the dealer.

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Update

After posting the above I traipsed once more through the interweb, looking for a used one. Several days of searching had not located one, but when I did individual searches with the breakers I found one at Imperial Sportbikes for $162 and ordered it.

So, even though I no longer need a source for one, anybody with info re the evo starter still please feel free to share your info.

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Update and background.

My 2012 M1100evo (15,000 miles) developed a hot start problem over a period of several months. I repaired it myself even though I have friends who are dealer techs. This is a recap of the problem, the eventual repair, and a few things I learned about the M1100evo starting system.

The bike was starting fine when cold, but turning over slower when hot, much as you would expect from a failing battery.  I was not very concerned because the battery (Shorai )had been in another bike for about 3 years and then swapped into my Monster when I bought it in November, 2012. So, I started putting her on a charger which helped, but it seemed that the battery capacity was going away because the hot starts were noticeably slower. I was aware that a weak battery could cause sprag damage and listened closely at each start and avoided excessive cranking.

The charger had a LiFebalance capability mode but I did not have the correct connector/cable setup for that function so I bought a Shorai charger thinking that a cell balance would restore the battery capacity. That was wishful thinking because the problem persisted even with the Shorai charger.

At this point I should have done the normal starter troubleshooting steps. Instead, I took the easy route; I bought a new Shorai battery and immediately began abusing it because the problem was not fixed. Talking it over with my expert friends, they concluded the problem was the LiFe battery and I ought to go back to an AGM. Discounting my years of good service from several Shorais, I bought an AGM and proved that I should not have listened to them. The problem persisted.  At this point I was thinking that the starter had an internal fault which only happened when hot, but did not follow up on that hunch.

All along, I kept worrying about the sprag and definitely tried not to abuse it during the periods of slow/no hot starts and also tried to make sure that I did not need to restart immediately after a shut down. I also knew it was time to finally stop procrastinating and do some real trouble shooting.

Still thinking the battery at fault, a quick drain test proved there was minimal drain. Next was the battery connections and ground point but they were fine visually.  BTW, forgot to mention that I previously upgraded the charging and starting circuits to 4 ga stranded cables. Thinking those terminal installations might be compromised, I ohmed them and they were good. Since I had built and installed the terminals myself, I had confidence in them and did not do a voltage drop test. Readers need to understand that a continuity test does not indicate ability to conduct high amps. Only thing left between the battery and starter was the solenoid so I inspected it after a partial disassembly and it was in good condition.

Consensus was that it was a bad sprag and that it was on its way to total failure.  I did not agree and started thinking that my initial idea about the starter incrementally developing high resistance when hot was correct. I removed the starter and disassembled it but all checks were good. The brushes were almost like new and the armature and commutator tests were good. I took it to an auto electric shop and they bench checked it as being good. The commutator was slightly discolored, but nothing out of the ordinary so I cleaned it, reassembled the starter and, in a foolish moment of wishful thinking, reinstalled it.

While doing this work I learned that the evo starter is a Taigene, not a Denso as earlier Monsters. The main difference is that the Taigene does not have replaceable brushes.

I did not have a meter to measure high DC amps but was pleased to find one for about $56.00 at Sears (Model No. 82369). This was a good find compared to the cost of other brands. Clamped it on and could not believe my eyes when I saw 400 amps! That reading was verified later after I rode to a friend's house and his SnapOn meter also registered 400. Definitely in cable/component melt down range!

I pulled the starter again and evidence of the 400 amp draw was now quite apparent! The attached pic clearly shows major discoloration, pitting, and incremental surface erosion manifested by flat spots developing at each segment edge.  The armature was toast.

Decision point now. Replace the starter and bet that the sprag is still serviceable, or replace both and be done with it? Price of a new starter was $545.57 and a sprag and a flange cost $333.31. I decided to replace the starter and the sprag and evaluate the flange upon disassembly.  Even with me doing the work, this was developing into an expensive repair but the Interweb came to the rescue. Gotham Cycles had a new sprag for $149.99 and also carried the flange if needed.  http://www.gothamcycles.com  The one I ordered was described as a new design sprag. That was the next interesting thing I learned about our start system.  Mike from Gotham Cycles promptly answered my emails and processed my order quickly. This was my first order with them, but will not be my last.

Thinking of costs, I emailed Rick's to see about a starter replacement /rewind.  He asked for a pic and then replied that he could not do anything for me since it was a Taigene. I'm not sure why this is, but I had noticed that the brush plate was riveted in the housing end cap.

Fortunately I found a used starter with 3800 miles on it  http://imperialsportbikes.com for $161.99. Buying used electrical components can be risky but I had bought from Imperial before and had confidence in them. As usual, they processed my order promptly and I had the starter three days later.

Disassembly provided my next learning experience. The alternator rotor holding fixture shown in the shop manual is incorrect because it is for the earlier 1100 motor and is about 10.00 Mm too wide for the evo. I later saw that the fixture call out in the parts fische is correct even though the shop manual is wrong.  Got the correct fixture and ran into the next roadblock.  The rotor to flywheel screws (T25 Torx) were so tight that I twisted and broke five different Torx bits. I took it to the shop and they rolled their eyes at me and then proceeded to break several of theirs and ended up using a type of easy-out. Examination showed green threadlock on the screws.  I ordered new screws before leaving. BTW, we opted not to use heat on them because of the magnets, their epoxy, and the plastic insulator. When the new screws arrived they were hex head rather than Torx and carried a different part number.

Easy peasy after all of that. Buttoned her up and she has been starting fine for several months now. I even removed the AGM battery and reinstalled a Shorai. Since only the armature was faulty, the end cap and brush holder was removed and installed on another Taigene equipped bike which needed brushes.

Lessons learned were that the shop manual is much like others in that it is not error free.  And the evo sprag has been upgraded from the original configuration. No big surprise there because that has happened many times with many marques. And, if you are removing green or red threadlocked Torx screws and cannot use heat on them, expect that it won't be easy. And doing an amp draw test earlier in the troubleshooting would have saved me a lot of time, and would also have saved the expense of a new sprag. But, I take solace that I have the latest sprag version…….if that is a good thing? And, my practice of not grinding away on a starter, and the larger gauge cables, probably saved me from a massive meltdown, in spite of my failure to follow a logical troubleshooting sequence.

[Howie]

Great write up!  Even though this is not a "how to"  there is so much info maybe this post should be in Tutorials as well.  Amazing how things can go wrong even though you are doing everything right.  Bad armatures are quite rare, particularly on such a new starter.  Tricky when heat related.

Back around 1990 we were looking for a cheap used second car.  We bought a 1967 Volvo wagon.  Shortly after, the generator (yes, generator, DC current) failed.  Upon dis assembly, sure enough it needed brushes, bit apparently the mounting bolts were loose and resulted in a severely worn end cap.  Due to parts unavailability I drilled and bushed the end cap , cleaned and undercut the commutator, modified some brushes to fit.  I didn't bother to bench test the armature since they rarely go bad.  Well I did bench test it, excluding the PITA growler test.  One month later it failed.  Brushes toast, commutator burnt.

[EEL]

Now I know who to PM if my M1100 EVO starter takes a dump.

[koko64]

Same here.
Cheers.

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Great write up!  Even though this is not a "how to"  there is so much info maybe this post should be in Tutorials as well.  Amazing how things can go wrong even though you are doing everything right.  Bad armatures are quite rare, particularly on such a new starter.  Tricky when heat related.
.....

Yes, definitely not a sequence anyone should follow. I was lucky not to cause a melt down. Main lesson that should be taken is that if nothing obvious is detected, safest bet is to then test the amperage draw before doing anything else. Secondary lesson is that my old school self imposed starter duty cycle probably helped. I know people that advocate 1 minute on out of a 10 minute period, but I am even more conservative than that.

I was surprised to find out that the auto electric shop I went to did not have a growler. Seemed to be more of a remove and replace process now.

Since this happened, I've taken a closer look at the armature and saw that the iron core stack had a deformation at one edge. It looked as though it had been dropped on that edge before the stack was machined round. That could have been the root cause for the internal failure. Or it was just statistically time for one to go wonky.

One other item I forgot to mention is that the shaft bearings were never affected.