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Author Topic: Cams, Compression and Such. A Discussion.  (Read 9897 times)
Duck-Stew
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« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2016, 06:53:55 AM »

Interesting side note for the 4V folks:  Ferracci 12:1 forged 748 pistons will close the gap of the NGK DCPR9E plugs.  So, I had to swap over to the NGK R2525-9's.
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koko64
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« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2016, 08:08:48 AM »

Had the same issue with an 944 Vee Two hi comp Pistal kit and the Denso iridium equivalent of NGK DPR8EIX-9.
Sure enough holding the plugs side by side showed about 2mm difference in the projected reach.
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DILLIGAF


« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2016, 08:10:10 AM »

The Pistal 853 pistons tolerate the DCP plug.
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« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2016, 08:11:32 AM »

FBF use Wiseco ay?
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Speeddog
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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2016, 08:20:29 AM »

FBF use Wiseco ay?

I think they've also used JE.

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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2016, 08:37:35 AM »

I think they've also used JE.


I think that's the norm for FBF.
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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2016, 08:58:13 AM »

Regarding the crowns of the pistons....

I'm only working from a really small sample size, but I've found that the Pistal and Mahle products are better than the JE and Wiseco product.

Actually, the rest of the parts of those pistons are nicer as well.  Tongue
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« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2016, 09:01:54 AM »

In what way,  machining, finish or shape?
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« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2016, 09:04:52 AM »

I think they've also used JE.



These are JE's and they've been discontinued for a while now.  FBF recommended me to use the Champion RA59GC plug, but I had already bought the R2525-9's.  I should be able to fire it off tonight and see how it sounds/runs.
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« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2016, 09:14:03 AM »

Wonder what the dyno will say. Sigma site says the best bike Ducati didnt make or something like that.

Recently dealt with FBF 750 pistons that had knife edge sharp valve reliefs I had to smooth. Protrusion hot spots. Beautifully polished however.
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Speeddog
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« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2016, 10:43:26 AM »

In what way,  machining, finish or shape?

Pretty much everything.

This is as close to an apples-to-apples as I can get:





A FBF 88mm hi-comp, pretty sure it's a Wiseco on the left, vs. a Mahle 91mm on the right.
Mahle is 3mm larger, yet only 12g heavier with the pin.
FBF is naked aluminum, but Mahle piston is coated everywhere, and has some sort of other coating on the skirt.
FBF is pretty chunky, while the Mahle is pocketed above and outboard of the pin, and the pin bosses are contoured.
Mahle has a shorter pin, with a tapered bore.
Mahle crown and dome fit the combustion chamber better, so end up with a more efficient squish.

Neither piston fits the chamber all that well, which annoys me greatly.
The cost of doing it properly is minimal.
As an example, the squish area of the FBF is totally flat.
The mating chamber area is domed slightly.
So the squish is limited by the very edge of the piston, and gets wider as you go toward centerline.
So it's squandering compression.
Not a deal-breaker, but fixing it is troublesome.

It's not a totally fair comparison, as the Mahle are likely 2X the price of the FBF.
And in a street motor application, likely not much benefit.

It's just annoying that they both could have done the crown properly for maybe $10 more in machining and design per piston.
And it'll cost far more than 10X that to fix it even halfway.
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« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2016, 11:04:08 AM »

Wonder what the dyno will say. Sigma site says the best bike Ducati didnt make or something like that.

Sigma is likely referring to the 853 kit.  Although I wanted an 853, due to budgeting reasons, I had to settle for a 12:1 748.

I figure at the elevation I'm at (5000 feet), the only thing the 12:1's will net me is a return to sea-level horsepower & torque values.  Undecided

Meh...  It'll do ok.  Better than it was.  (that comment much mirrors Speeddog's post above...)
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« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2016, 12:21:35 PM »

I thought I had some pics of the 853 Pistals I put inn a customer's 748.

Can't find 'em at the moment.

But they're absolute hard-core bike porn.  drool
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« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2016, 01:27:03 PM »

I can only say that the 853 motor I got from Dragsterhund with Pistals and 748R cams makes within a couple of horses and a couple of pounds of a typical 996 BiP that's stock on the vet's dyno

It just spins up faster and farther.

I do kind of miss the 996 though. It made the kind of power that felt like it was going to pull your arms off.
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"Once you accept that a child on the autistic spectrum experiences the world in
 a completely different way than you, you will be open to understand how that
 perspective
    is even more amazing than yours."
    To realize the value of nine  months:
    Ask a mother who gave birth to a stillborn.
"Don't piss off old people The older we get, the less 'Life in Prison' is a deterrent.”


koko64
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« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2016, 01:46:04 PM »

Sigma is likely referring to the 853 kit.  Although I wanted an 853, due to budgeting reasons, I had to settle for a 12:1 748.

Yep thats right. I remember now.
You going to run a dual map switch, sea level and mountain maps?

I can only say that the 853 motor I got from Dragsterhund with Pistals and 748R cams makes within a couple of horses and a couple of pounds of a typical 996 BiP that's stock on the vet's dyno

It just spins up faster and farther.

I do kind of miss the 996 though. It made the kind of power that felt like it was going to pull your arms off.
I wonder which one laps quicker.

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