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Monsterlover does a big bore kit.

Started by Monsterlover, September 18, 2016, 01:40:02 PM

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clubhousemotorsports

#45
October 15, 2016, 06:50:47 AM
A few questions first as I am not looking at the parts.

Who makes the piston?  wiseco,KTM ?
what does the piston kit (different from piston manufacturer) say to run it at?

usually you run the gaps so many .001 per inch of bore. Fore instance a wiseco forged piston will use different formulas depending on if it is a street motor, track motor or race motor. They run them looser as the pressures get higher so for a ring the snot out of it bike you usually run the track formula. Each piston and motor manufacturer will have different ideas on how much to run.


What is the piston?
what is the piston size ( measured in inch or mm)?

Getting away with a +.001" or +.002" should be no problem running one with much more will lead to more blowby.  You state .02 is that inches? if so it sounds loose for a top ring what is the KTM spec?

post up what the ring spec's the piston kit seller wants.
top
middle
oil expander rings (1 piece or two?)

Monsterlover

#46
October 15, 2016, 09:52:05 PM
Quote from: clubhousemotorsports on October 15, 2016, 06:50:47 AM
A few questions first as I am not looking at the parts.

Who makes the piston?  wiseco,KTM ?
what does the piston kit (different from piston manufacturer) say to run it at?

usually you run the gaps so many .001 per inch of bore. Fore instance a wiseco forged piston will use different formulas depending on if it is a street motor, track motor or race motor. They run them looser as the pressures get higher so for a ring the snot out of it bike you usually run the track formula. Each piston and motor manufacturer will have different ideas on how much to run.


What is the piston?
what is the piston size ( measured in inch or mm)?

Getting away with a +.001" or +.002" should be no problem running one with much more will lead to more blowby.  You state .02 is that inches? if so it sounds loose for a top ring what is the KTM spec?

post up what the ring spec's the piston kit seller wants.
top
middle
oil expander rings (1 piece or two?)


Piston is Carrillo

Their chart is as follows-

Street/high performance
Top ring bore x .0045
Oil ring min .015 do not file

Drag race / road race
Top ring bore x .005
Oil ring same as above

Nitrous/turbo/blower
Top ring bore x .0055
Oil ring same as above

The sheet from Thumper Racing-
Top ring bore x .0045
Oil rings - Verify there is at least .005 of ring end gap per inch of bore

Bore is 4.015 (all the numbers are inches. 4.015mm would be an awfully small piston)

So according to TR's sheet (and Carrillo's street/high perf category) the top ring should be .018" gap

Oil ring should be .02". I believe I measured .013" then filed way to much. One oil ring was .02 the other was like .026. These are one top and bottom oil ring plus the expander between the two.

I did not use a ring grinder the first time around but I did buy one so that's on hand if I need it.

Think I should redo it?

Top ring was .023" or so.
"The Vincent was like a bullet that went straight; the Ducati is like the magic bullet in Dallas that went sideways and hit JFK and the Governor of Texas at the same time."--HST    **"A man who works with his hands is a laborer.  A man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman.  A man who works with his hands, brains, and heart is an artist."  -Louis Nizer**

Speeddog

#47
October 16, 2016, 10:45:40 AM
There is still some question on whether the 2nd ring is in upside down?
- - - - - Valley Desmo Service - - - - -
Reseda, CA
(951) 640-8908

~~~ "We've rearranged the deck chairs, refilled the champagne glasses, and the band sounds great. This is fine." - Alberto Puig ~~~

Monsterlover

#48
October 16, 2016, 10:49:27 AM
There are only the top ring and the oil rings. The top ring is for sure correct and TR told me the oil rings can go either way.
"The Vincent was like a bullet that went straight; the Ducati is like the magic bullet in Dallas that went sideways and hit JFK and the Governor of Texas at the same time."--HST    **"A man who works with his hands is a laborer.  A man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman.  A man who works with his hands, brains, and heart is an artist."  -Louis Nizer**

clubhousemotorsports

#49
October 16, 2016, 05:05:53 PM
Based on what you posted I would be shocked if those are not wiseco rings. Manufacturers often do not make all the parts but just the forging not rings or pins.

I would get a new pack and size them properly, being a 2-ring piston you will have more blowby anyway I would not want to start out with worn out rings.

Was there a part number on the ring set packaging? I may have some wiseco spares around from sets that were also out of spec. This is obviously why we check on every build.

Monsterlover

#50
October 16, 2016, 05:09:25 PM
I could look for a part number but I've already got replacement rings on hand as well as base and head gaskets.

I'll get going on it.
"The Vincent was like a bullet that went straight; the Ducati is like the magic bullet in Dallas that went sideways and hit JFK and the Governor of Texas at the same time."--HST    **"A man who works with his hands is a laborer.  A man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman.  A man who works with his hands, brains, and heart is an artist."  -Louis Nizer**

ducpainter

#51
October 16, 2016, 05:13:51 PM
Quote from: Monsterlover on October 16, 2016, 05:09:25 PM
I could look for a part number but I've already got replacement rings on hand as well as base and head gaskets.

I'll get going on it.
Do you have a bucket of Margaritas to ensure success?
"Once you accept that a child on the autistic spectrum experiences the world in
 a completely different way than you, you will be open to understand how that
 perspective
    is even more amazing than yours."
    To realize the value of nine  months:
    Ask a mother who gave birth to a stillborn.
"Don't piss off old people The older we get, the less 'Life in Prison' is a deterrent."


Monsterlover

#52
October 16, 2016, 05:14:50 PM Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 05:32:51 PM by Monsterlover
I guess I should post some more pics before I get behind on it.

Unboxing the kit-









The piston-







-
"The Vincent was like a bullet that went straight; the Ducati is like the magic bullet in Dallas that went sideways and hit JFK and the Governor of Texas at the same time."--HST    **"A man who works with his hands is a laborer.  A man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman.  A man who works with his hands, brains, and heart is an artist."  -Louis Nizer**

Monsterlover

#53
October 16, 2016, 05:15:12 PM
Quote from: ducpainter on October 16, 2016, 05:13:51 PM
Do you have a bucket of Margaritas to ensure success?

Maaaybe
"The Vincent was like a bullet that went straight; the Ducati is like the magic bullet in Dallas that went sideways and hit JFK and the Governor of Texas at the same time."--HST    **"A man who works with his hands is a laborer.  A man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman.  A man who works with his hands, brains, and heart is an artist."  -Louis Nizer**

ducpainter

#54
October 16, 2016, 05:18:49 PM
I've seen similar coatings on piston skirts before, but what's that baby shit brown stuff on the piston crowns?
"Once you accept that a child on the autistic spectrum experiences the world in
 a completely different way than you, you will be open to understand how that
 perspective
    is even more amazing than yours."
    To realize the value of nine  months:
    Ask a mother who gave birth to a stillborn.
"Don't piss off old people The older we get, the less 'Life in Prison' is a deterrent."


Monsterlover

#55
October 16, 2016, 05:24:44 PM Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 05:28:04 PM by Monsterlover
The cylinder. The logo is, I'm assuming, acid etched.





My redneck ring grinder. Don't laugh, it worked really well. Gaps were dead square.





Ring pliers help but aren't absolutely necessary. I had them left over from a previous build.





There's really no wasted space down in there. Note the oil squirters.





I installed one of the wrist pin clips (left side) and slipped the pin through the roof with the piston and cylinder together. Then installed the right side clip.














So now I'll pull the head and cylinder back of, shit can the rings, refit new rings and squish it all back together and hope it holds together for another hundred, or more, hours of fun.

100 may not seem like much but it's a race engine. 10,000rpm rev limit and it sees it, believe me. It always catches me by surprise because the engine continues to make more power and then it starts coughing as the limiter kicks in.

11.9:1 compression ratio too. I'm not sure that changes by moving to a larger piston.
"The Vincent was like a bullet that went straight; the Ducati is like the magic bullet in Dallas that went sideways and hit JFK and the Governor of Texas at the same time."--HST    **"A man who works with his hands is a laborer.  A man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman.  A man who works with his hands, brains, and heart is an artist."  -Louis Nizer**

Monsterlover

#56
October 16, 2016, 05:25:58 PM
Quote from: ducpainter on October 16, 2016, 05:18:49 PM
I've seen similar coatings on piston skirts before, but what's that baby shit brown stuff on the piston crowns?

I think it helps keep heat from conducting through the crown, which helps make power.
"The Vincent was like a bullet that went straight; the Ducati is like the magic bullet in Dallas that went sideways and hit JFK and the Governor of Texas at the same time."--HST    **"A man who works with his hands is a laborer.  A man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman.  A man who works with his hands, brains, and heart is an artist."  -Louis Nizer**

ducpainter

#57
October 16, 2016, 05:29:32 PM
Quote from: Monsterlover on October 16, 2016, 05:25:58 PM
I think it helps keep heat from conducting through the crown, which helps make power.
Is it a ceramic...silicone...have to kill you if I tell you?
"Once you accept that a child on the autistic spectrum experiences the world in
 a completely different way than you, you will be open to understand how that
 perspective
    is even more amazing than yours."
    To realize the value of nine  months:
    Ask a mother who gave birth to a stillborn.
"Don't piss off old people The older we get, the less 'Life in Prison' is a deterrent."


Monsterlover

#58
October 16, 2016, 05:35:31 PM
No idea but ceramic sounds on point.
"The Vincent was like a bullet that went straight; the Ducati is like the magic bullet in Dallas that went sideways and hit JFK and the Governor of Texas at the same time."--HST    **"A man who works with his hands is a laborer.  A man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman.  A man who works with his hands, brains, and heart is an artist."  -Louis Nizer**

Speeddog

#59
October 16, 2016, 10:49:47 PM
That's a very nice piston.
Pin oilers, good stuff.

I hadn't grasped the fact that there was no second ring.
I agree with the Vet, redo it.
- - - - - Valley Desmo Service - - - - -
Reseda, CA
(951) 640-8908

~~~ "We've rearranged the deck chairs, refilled the champagne glasses, and the band sounds great. This is fine." - Alberto Puig ~~~
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