Another no-Monster build thread

[MonsterHPD]

I'll be back later with at least a hundred questions.

I´ll try my best ... a seminar does not make a master :-)

[MonsterHPD]

Well,
some people think we have a long winter here in Sweden, but from a project perspective it sure isn´t too long ....

My tuned motor project is put on hold for a while, since every little item I touched has turned into a little project of it´s own. So I´m concentrating on the little niggles that always seem to be planned for "later".
As already noted, suspension has been slightly revised, and changing fork springs is now very quickly acomplished. Damper removal should also be easier now, previously I had to remove the exhaust to get at it, and to get at the exhaust I had to remove the belly pan .... should be possible now without removing anything except the shock.

Underslung caliper bracket an new brake hose for the rear:

2018-01-31 19.43.22 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

New brake fluid container bracket and new brake hoses for the front:

2018-02-14 16.08.47 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

2018-02-14 16.09.01 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

2018-02-14 16.09.21 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

One colleague in the club had a quite big crash last summer when (for some reason) the front fender came loose and was ripped off the bike by the front tire. Along with it came the brake lines, however this did not become apparent until the tight turn after the back straight .... so I wanted to get the brake lines away from the fender. I hope this will do.  

[MonsterHPD]

Well, assuming some interest might be there for this seemingly never-ending project, I´ll provide an update on what´s happened so far during 2018. I already did this on the german forum Ducati1.de, so if someone is on both forums, this will be mostly known already.

Anyway, in a very short version, the summer 2018 could be compiled in two short headlines:
Tops ….

Pokal by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

….. or flops.

2018-06-25 12.29.06 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

But that would not be very fair, after all the summer was more eventful than this.

I´ll actually start with the M800; as already shown elsewhere on this forum,  I finally found a workable design for rearsets, with the basic aim of moving the footpegs as close to the center of the bike as possible, and finding a good position for the pegs themselves. They now sit some 50 mm further back, and recognizing my age, actually slightly lower than stock 😊 Even so, knee pucks are now first on the tarmac, not the boot sliders.
The pegs themselves are from german supplier LSL; they have very neat folding footpeg kits for the passenger.
In practice, it all worked very well, and the not-more-so-dark M800 Dark on Bridgestone S21´s is actually great fun on the mostly short and tight swedish tracks. Interestingly,even though I have the suspension set up for comfort on the street for me (63 kg + gear), it works well on track, and even for faster riders 30 kg´s heavier. I suppose the 800 motors relative lack of power is a factor here, but nevertheless, it does indicate that my belief premium suspension does not have to be perfectly set up to work at least well is correct-ish.  It´s not Marquez territory, but still …

2018-08-15 14.31.43 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

As anyone will know, with an 800 motor, no records will be broken, but there is a special attraction to beating the shit out of something. Marquez-type talent lacking, a bike with limited potential is the key, and with the nature of most swedish track you can have a lot of fun on such a bike. Of course, anyone will kill you on the straights, but you see a quite a lot of people again at the next corner ...
    
Back to the trophy … in the swedish Duc club we run a club championship, basically in 2V and 4V classes, run together and in WSB format (2+2 races at two different tracks).  Not considering myself to be a racer, and not riding too well at the trackday before the first race, I had no intention to participate.  However, I was persuaded to participate. In the first race, I followed behind my buddy (on our rain bike 900 SS with slick tires) to get up to speed, and ended up 4th  (out of 6, I think). In the second race, I was a bit more ambitious, had a good start and finally ended up 3rd, bettering my lap record by 4 or so seconds (to 1:53 or so, one of the possibly two longest tracks in Sweden). Competition does change how you percieve things, like risk evaluation … but it was great fun, especially beating my buddy.

Then, to the flops … the 4 track days on the track in Gotland, Gotland Ring.
For some reason, the first stint felt really awkward, and before the second stint I asked my buddy to pull me along. That was a mistake; towards the end of the lap there is a left-hander over a crest and I saw too late that my buddy was approaching a slower rider. I suppose I eased my pace and lost a bit of focus, anyway the next thing I knew I was tumbling in the “limestone trap” (Gotland is a limestone isle).  Shit … especially as I´ve made exactly the same thing many years ago, also behind him “pulling me along” in my first lap around the Cartagena track in Spain. Suppose there is a lesson here... If nothing else, leave “pulling along” until things at least feel OK if not fast.  
No big harm done, ribs mangled, and the outer joit of the middle finger still fat and tender. Bike not too bad, really, at least I laid her on the cheap side, but I went back to Old Faithful, our rain bike, for the rest of the week.    


After the gotland excursion, not too much out of the ordinary has happened this summer, apart from the  ordinary Duc club track days. As in the rest of Europe, the summer was so hot that a lot of the track days sort of petered out after lunchtime with only the most enthusiastic still riding in the late afternoon.  I also was affected by this, and though I´m usually among the “enduring” riders I also often called it a day early. I suppose old age is starting to catch up with me now at 63.
From a technical point of view, also not too much has happened. I still had some chattering early on, so I´ve slightly modified the fork so I can quickly and easily swap springs, and I´ve installed a cross-over shim in the shimstacks to get a softer initial response.

20171220_130435 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

At the rear I now have a 90 N/m spring (down from 120 N/mm), and I´ve also gone down another mm on the clamp shim diameter.  
Both front and rear really should be too soft by now, but it felt fine so far, so it´s a good starting point, I believe.
For the winter, I have quite a few projects planned, time allowing. A new motor with some tuning bits, new rear subframe for a slightly lower seat, possibly clip-ons with rearward position of the ends, and tank further back for better support during braking. I know this is not what a racer should be like, but all the riding on the Monster this summer has convinced me that “ass high” is not my thing, and for a while I even considered modifying the track bike towards a street fighter configuration. However, when the riding does work out, the “racer” style really is better for track riding.

So, let´s see what time, money and inspiration will suffice for over the winter; first steps are already ongoing.      

2018-10-06 14.10.54 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

[koko64]

Bravo
Thanks for sharing.
Heal up soon.

[Speeddog]

Eh, not so good to scrape both of you up, but sounds like some solid progress, and you're on the way back!

Is the 90 N/mm spring on the 800 or the track bike?

[Howie]

Good to hear you are pretty much OK.  To quick and complete recovery, both you and the bike 

[MonsterHPD]

Thanks for the well-wishes. I´m healing fine, and this was way back in late June, so no problem, seems I made it sound worse than it was. I suppose it served me right as punishment for a piece of really shit riding.

Anyway, the rear spring on the track bike is a 90 N/mm, on the M800 I have a 95 N/mm spring (stock from an ST4S).

On the track bike, I think that really is too soft, or at least should be, and the travel indicator I have on the shock shaft is always pushed down to the bump rubber which is at least an indication.
At the front I also have soft springs (8.75 N/mm as a mean) and still can´t even come close to bottoming the forks even with the rear in the air. Even though I think this is also too soft.     

That said, it does feel fine but I need more time on it to really tell, and to know if it has changed the chatter situation. I hope to be able to ride a little quicker and more consistently next summer, and adapt the suspension accordingly.

I personally think it´s easier to start with too soft suspension and work up to a sensible set-up, but this bike has me slightly mystified. One thing I will test at the rear is maybe a 100 N/mm spring and compensate with a little less static ride height, and at the front with a little more spring and less oil to reduce the progressive action of the forks. 

[Speeddog]

I'm running one each of progressive and straight rate in the forks on my M750.
Softens the midrange travel and still ramps up enough to not blow through the travel.
Makes setting preload a bit finicky, can't just do same turns both sides.
(Well, you can, but removing the axle the forks shift and reassembly gets maddening.)
The springs are ~0.75 kN/mm equivalent full stroke.
I'm running /100 Ohlins spring or 600#/in Hyperco recently.
I'm ~75 kilo + gear, and I'm on the street, so I'm not riding track level aggression.
OTOH, I try to get the spring to do the most work possible and just enough damping to keep it from getting crazy.
I suspect it'd be too soft in pitch for tracking.

I'd say, unless you've got cornering ground clearance issues, you could drop some travel at each end, from the fully extended position.
That gets more weight on the front end quite naturally for steady state cornering, and can allow you to sit more upright.

Depends also on if you've got other riders intended for the bike... I've forgotten. 

Thanks for the well-wishes. I´m healing fine, and this was way back in late June, so no problem, seems I made it sound worse than it was. I suppose it served me right as punishment for a piece of really shit riding.

Anyway, the rear spring on the track bike is a 90 N/mm, on the M800 I have a 95 N/mm spring (stock from an ST4S).

On the track bike, I think that really is too soft, or at least should be, and the travel indicator I have on the shock shaft is always pushed down to the bump rubber which is at least an indication.
At the front I also have soft springs (8.75 N/mm as a mean) and still can´t even come close to bottoming the forks even with the rear in the air. Even though I think this is also too soft.     

That said, it does feel fine but I need more time on it to really tell, and to know if it has changed the chatter situation. I hope to be able to ride a little quicker and more consistently next summer, and adapt the suspension accordingly.

I personally think it´s easier to start with too soft suspension and work up to a sensible set-up, but this bike has me slightly mystified. One thing I will test at the rear is maybe a 100 N/mm spring and compensate with a little less static ride height, and at the front with a little more spring and less oil to reduce the progressive action of the forks. 

[MonsterHPD]

Well, that´s an idea, never tried t run one each. I assume your progressive springs are true progressive, and not the more like dual stage Duc stock springs?

On the track bike, I will start with the soft set-up and see where that takes me. With a lower seating position I will have some more scope to vary ride height; ground clearance is not a problem.

On the M800, I´m not sure what springs I have right now since springs have been swapped around some to test various set-ups between my 2 bikes and one or two others. I think I´m at 8.0 N/mm, suppose I should check. Eventually :-)

With the 2-1 exhaust and footrest hangers, ground clearance is not a problem. If I find decent speed in left-handers as well, the side-stand might become a problem but has not been so far.

Both bikes are almost only ridden by me, and not much two up on the M800 either.     
 

[greenmonster]

Krya på dig.

"on the M800 I have a 95 N/mm spring"

Isn`t that a too heavy spring for your weight?

What`s done to the Rain Bike suspensionwise? Adapted for rain use?

[MonsterHPD]

Krya på dig.

"on the M800 I have a 95 N/mm spring"

Isn`t that a too heavy spring for your weight?

What`s done to the Rain Bike suspensionwise? Adapted for rain use?

Tack, det är OK 

The 95 N/mm is pretty OK, maybe I´ll try the 90 N/mm springs sometime, just for a test. I did try an 85 N/mm spring on the M900 (same bike, basically), that was definitely too soft.

The rain bike is pretty basic, since it is beeing used by people ranging from about 60 kg to about 100 kg, and used in the wetand dry, depending on weather and what bikes might be running (or not) .... but the forks are adapted as per Showa Blues (part 1-2), and the shock is a standard Öhins from a SS1000DS. Somewhat surprisingly, that seems to work for everyone, even if I can sense some slight chatter in some situations.

   

[Speeddog]

I'm lost just a bit....

3 bikes; rain bike, M800, and 999-based track bike, yes?

[MonsterHPD]

I'm lost just a bit....

3 bikes; rain bike, M800, and 999-based track bike, yes?

Referring to the previous post: Basically yes. M800, 900 SSie rain bike, 749R-based track bike.  

[Speeddog]

Referring to the previous post: Basically yes. M800, 900 SSie rain bike, 749R-based track bike.  

OK, I'm not as addled as I thought. 

[MonsterHPD]

Well,
ever so slowly things are moving on. Not as fast as I´d like, but still … moving on.
One might think that having retired from professional life,  you´d have any amount of time for other endeavours. As a matter of fact, you do, but the endeavours might not all be the ones you thought … for instance, a lot of my time is devoted to walking the woods with the dog. This time could of course be used for something else, but I´m glad for the company and for the exercise, both of which I´d not have without him. He´s my friend in retirement 😊  

IMG_0277 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr
 
So or so, the new bearings are finally in the cases. I don´t like this kind of jobs; I do them not very often, they might require a certain amount of violence, quite simply not my cup of tea.I suppose if you´d do it often, it would become routine, but this is my second go in 10 or so years.
Anyway, my pal with all the workshop equipment also has an oven where the cases could be more or less melted. In his experience, 180 to 200°C will cause the old bearings to simply drop out if you clop them on a sturdy table ; in my case not so … the bearings still had to be hammered out.
We also for the first time experienced the new style of crank main bearings; no separate sleeve with a channel for the piston cooling oil, it´s all in the outer bearing race.
Even with this tight fit, some movenment seem to take place, this is what the bearing and bearing seat looked like.

2018-10-25 17.47.49 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

2018-10-25 17.05.25 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

After I posted this on the german Monster forum, a forum member in whom I place a lot of faith recommended using the MIG welder to remove the bearings; with a bit of weld on the inside of the race it will shrink enough to drop out, especially if you heat the cases as well. I have seen this done on wheel bearings, will try it next time on a crankcase. As welders go, MIG welders are close to violence in my book, but a hammer and chisel is worse ….

When assembling the new bearings, I heated the cases to 130°C, and had the bearings in the freezer for days. I expected some violence to be necessary (having prepared by making some drifts with proper outer diameter to press on the outer races, and center guide to fit the bearing iD. To my surprise, the bearings all dropped into place, except on of the cam drive bearings where some pursuation was necessary.
As always, when I use the press, it´s not alright. In this case, the bearings seems to have got stuck on the seeger ring groove, and got slightly cocked. I got the bearing out again, made sure there were no raises edges or whatever, and pressed a new bearing in (at 130°C), and gad a slight go at all the other bearings to make sure they were properley seated, while the cases were hot.  Should be OK now.

With the bearings done, next up is shimming the gearbox shafts and the crank. This is still ongoing, I´ll be back when I´m done. You can spend a lot of time to get this “perfecr”, so I´ll be back wheni think I´m done :-).