Really? Never took a physics class?

[OwnyTony]

i am just being catty

i think you stated it right.  i am a firm believer in human nature and that being a selfish nature.  that doesn't mean a selfish person doesn't act altruistically, it just means that altruism TRULY is usually within the context of selfish motives.  (That's why rich people always want their names on their grants -- cases in point:
Brought to you by the "John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation."
The Paul G. Allen Family Foundation
The Rockefeller Foundation etc etc.    donate money so people can see how nice you are -- selfish motive.

And I am NOT saying that it is a BAD motive, it is a normal, human desire to be appreciated!  But the base definition is that it is a form of selfishness (i.e. concern for oneself).

Likewise, in the global scheme of things, people have to act selfishly if they are to succeed and not act pathologically altruistic.  Mother Theresa acted in this manner, and while it works for one person, society would fall apart if everyone pulled a "mother Theresa."  There would be no wealth to donate, and poverty would be worse than before.

My comment about "Might makes right" comes from this notion of selfishness.  It is simply the rule of the world.  When two people disagree, they can walk away from one another.  But when two different peoples (societies) disagree, and the disagreement is over who has a right to a limited resource, the result is negotiation and/or armed conflict.

Considering the history of mankind, both paths have been employed since the beginning of time.  The UN was not the beginning of negotiation.  We see examples of it in Babylonian times, under the code of Hammurabi, who actually defined rules for how to talk to an adversary, and even how to retreat.

Some now in the modern like to believe that the ancients were only about killing and fighting, but they are dead wrong.  Even the Romans understood the value of a good negotiation.

That being said, when negotiations break down it is might that determines the new reality - -and the explanation of it in a historical context (i.e. "History is written by the victors"). 

And just like Flavius Josephus on down, the victors NEVER portray themselves as aggressors or acknowledge that their adversary may have had a legitimate claim or complaint.  The victors want history to see them as peaceful, contented people, no matter how bloodthirsty or imperialistic they were.

Might does make right.  Like it or not.

I totally understand what you are saying.  I too believe that every motive (including myself) is selfish.  I use to believe in "might is right" like you do.  That is my nature.  I have consciously steer myself away from it because of religion (i will stop there).  I still feel the way you do but I know it to be "wrong". 
To sum up myself, I am an idealist but I am very pragmatic.  Thinking something and doing something in reality are two different things.  Reality just does not allow for a utopia.
"might is right" is the policy of how the world function but it does not mean that Might is Right.

What i feel you should have concluded your statement is
Rather you like it or not, the world functions on a policy where the strong imposes his will on the weaker. But this does not mean that Might is a defined as being right.

[He Man]

OwnyTony, i wasnt talking about you, im talking in general. I dont know you, so im not going to make a judgement like that against, you. ANd i never said, Ducatizz or you did not appreciate this country's benifits. It was ment as a POV using your ideal. Anyone who cares enough to be intrested in this thread already appreciates everything that has been giving to them. And its the beauty of this country. We may not agree on how things work, but you can always have a point of view without being killed. I've learned, everyone has their own vision of the world and its problems, and everyone is right (except for communists!!!) just dont pressure your view on anyone. And thats how im appraoching this topic. It is not a flame towards you, or anyone. Understand, learn and live.

In regards to "might is right".... and our "entitlement to luxury". Theres an idea that what your parents work hard for, is passed down to you. In fact that is how all of humanity was designed to work. Thats how thousands of years of cumulative knowledge has led us to a modern society. How does it apply to our discussion?

Everyone who has passed through here and decided to stick around has worked hard to give their children what they didnt have. It is our responsibility to pass our earnings onto our children. So if everyone before has fought hard to give us luxurys like electricity, why is it not our right to be entitled to that? Do I need to spill my own blood and invent my own way to make electricity? No, someone has already done that, what we need to do is to appreciate what we have and work to make it better. But not every single one of us has the mind and ability to find alternative sources for energy. Those of us who can, will, the rest will do something else.

Rather you like it or not, the world functions on a policy where the strong imposes his will on the weaker. But this does not mean that Might is a defined as being right.

If you consider might as a form of militaristic power, then yes, you are true. but i guess i misunderstood it. I viewed it as the people who are more willing to do something is right because they didnt just sit on their ass and wait for a plate to be handed to them.

Just a question.

Why do you think you deserve the luxury that you currently live with today?

[akmnstr]

Well since I have taken more than a few physics classes I thought I'd check in and see if there was a discussion of Newton or Einstein.  Some how you dudes got into a conservative dominated discussion of how the worlds social, political, and economic system works.  Why are the loudmouths at the end of the bar always on the right?  I'm out-a-here.

[ducatiz]

[OwnyTony]

  Why are the loudmouths at the end of the bar always on the right?  I'm out-a-here.

Because the loud mouths on the left are not smart enough yet smart enough to know that they cant logically hang with the loudmouths on the right.  Your statement assumes that only the right has loudmouths.  My statement is half joke/wit and other half retort.

[ducatiz]

Because the loud mouths on the left are not smart enough yet smart enough to know that they cant logically hang with the loudmouths on the right.  Your statement assumes that only the right has loudmouths.  My statement is half joke/wit and other half retort.

d'ohhhh

this is a good time for the Team America "dicks, pussies and assholes" speech.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qEiB4qazq4k

[OwnyTony]

In that regard, I gladly accept that im a Dick.

[fwtcc]

Because the loud mouths on the left are not smart enough yet smart enough to know that they cant logically hang with the loudmouths on the right.  Your statement assumes that only the right has loudmouths.  My statement is half joke/wit and other half retort.

On the other hand, they are often smart enough to check their facts or at least mind check what they are getting ready to spill out.  Come on now, when you rip on someone make sure it makes sense.

Burn post require at least one proof read.

[Ducatiloo]

Makes sense to me,  not smart enough to hang, but smart enough to realize that they can't hang.

[OwnyTony]

On the other hand, they are often smart enough to check their facts or at least mind check what they are getting ready to spill out.  Come on now, when you rip on someone make sure it makes sense.

Burn post require at least one proof read.

It makes total sense.  Your pointing out that I used "smart enough" back to back.  My dog is not smart enough to have a conversation with me yet he is smart enough not me mess with me.  If you dont get that........Ducatiloo explained it perfectly.

[He Man]

Watching TV right now...

APS and Green Fuel.

Algea that is grown and harvested. The process of growing Algae leaves behind a sludge that is used to make bio diesel. The algae itself needs CO2 to grow, so you recycle Co2 as well. The algae liquid is also refined to make ethanol. Further more, the liquid can be condensed into a solid rock form (similar to solid methane crystals) and burned in a powerplant. Since it is a clean burning fuel, so you reduce toxins too.

Also the leading use of energy is to light buildings and cool homes. I did not know that

[OwnyTony]

OwnyTony, i wasnt talking about you, im talking in general. I dont know you, so im not going to make a judgement like that against, you. ANd i never said, Ducatizz or you did not appreciate this country's benifits. It was ment as a POV using your ideal. Anyone who cares enough to be intrested in this thread already appreciates everything that has been giving to them. And its the beauty of this country. We may not agree on how things work, but you can always have a point of view without being killed. I've learned, everyone has their own vision of the world and its problems, and everyone is right (except for communists!!!) just dont pressure your view on anyone. And thats how im appraoching this topic. It is not a flame towards you, or anyone. Understand, learn and live.

In regards to "might is right".... and our "entitlement to luxury". Theres an idea that what your parents work hard for, is passed down to you. In fact that is how all of humanity was designed to work. Thats how thousands of years of cumulative knowledge has led us to a modern society. How does it apply to our discussion?

Everyone who has passed through here and decided to stick around has worked hard to give their children what they didnt have. It is our responsibility to pass our earnings onto our children. So if everyone before has fought hard to give us luxurys like electricity, why is it not our right to be entitled to that? Do I need to spill my own blood and invent my own way to make electricity? No, someone has already done that, what we need to do is to appreciate what we have and work to make it better. But not every single one of us has the mind and ability to find alternative sources for energy. Those of us who can, will, the rest will do something else.
If you consider might as a form of militaristic power, then yes, you are true. but i guess i misunderstood it. I viewed it as the people who are more willing to do something is right because they didnt just sit on their ass and wait for a plate to be handed to them.

Just a question.

Why do you think you deserve the luxury that you currently live with today?

Then our "beef" was a misunderstanding.  That is what I stated it could have been before I retorted against you. 

As to rather or not i deserve the luxury that i currently live with today.....That is relative.  I sure am accustomed to it.  I too am first (or second how you choose to count) generation American born in the states.  I was actually born on the most patriotic of days, the day America declared independence. 

I knew that most of our energy we used today was to light buildings and especially on heating and air.  I have had the privilege to visit abroad.  One thing you will notice is how they do at least have the technology and some what on the same scale to supply heating and air, they do not turn it on on the same scale as we do or to the level I am accustomed to in the states.  WHY?  Because electricity is more expensive then in the states.

I am accustomed to the "luxuries" I have today but morally counting the cost so that I can enjoy it, I am not nor can say with a clear conscience that I am entitled to it.

Like I said, entitlement is a very strong word/concept.  It means regardless of the circumstances, it should belong to you and readily accessible by you at your whim.   I mean, what do you(plural) think you are to be able to expect that, a king?

[ducatiz]

Watching TV right now...

APS and Green Fuel.

Algea that is grown and harvested. The process of growing Algae leaves behind a sludge that is used to make bio diesel. The algae itself needs CO2 to grow, so you recycle Co2 as well. The algae liquid is also refined to make ethanol. Further more, the liquid can be condensed into a solid rock form (similar to solid methane crystals) and burned in a powerplant. Since it is a clean burning fuel, so you reduce toxins too.

Also the leading use of energy is to light buildings and cool homes. I did not know that

i saw something on biodiesel made from algae, i am not surprised they can make ethanol from it.

sounds like a plan.

[fwtcc]

It makes total sense.  Your pointing out that I used "smart enough" back to back.  My dog is not smart enough to have a conversation with me yet he is smart enough not me mess with me.  If you dont get that........Ducatiloo explained it perfectly.

There are these little guys called commas.  They are what you are lacking in the sentence.  Once again, proof read your punk outs.

...are not smart enough, yet smart enough to know...

[OwnyTony]

There are these little guys called commas.  They are what you are lacking in the sentence.  Once again, proof read your punk outs.

Ok. One shallow and petty victory for you. EDIT: I lack one.