Chinese Cheating vs Americans cheating

[He Man]

We have 3 big issues at hand with the olympics.

Nastia getting 2nd place
China's under 16 year old mystery
Michale Phelps .01 Fly win.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/21/sports/21longman.php


Omega, the company that produces the timing equipment that also timed Phelps .01S win over serbia has photographs of the win. They have handed the pictures over to FINA, and FINA has showed the pictures to the serbians. FINA has decided not to release the photos, at the same time The serbians are saying theres no point, we saw them, he clearly won.

Problem? The Chinese papers are writing articles about Omega's preplanning Phelps win, how Omega paid Phelps $1million and forced a win. The article supposely quotes an NBC official who stated Phelps win was questionable. Why Am i posting this? My dad keeps arguing with me saying how Phelps cheated, but the second i bring up the issue with China's "16" year old gymnastic, he quickly goes on the defensive. Hes super nationalistic about China and hates American government (to be fair he also hates Chinese government which is why he left). He is 100% sure that phelps cheated. But I dont see how you can be 100% sure. What do you guys think?

I have no doubt that Phelps won. And i have no doubt that Nastia should of won 1st place. Her performance was MUCH better than the chinese yet somehow the judges favor the chinese. What about the little girl. There is evidence from her prior performances, that she is indeed 14.

Its AMAZING how much crap ends up in the news papers. The chinese papers are posting articles with Phelps cheating and nothing about the 14 year old girl.

American papers are writing about the 14 year old girl and why Nastia didnt win 1st. (though that blame falls on the olympic comittee not china, unless china bribed the judges, which i dont think is possible considering how they rule the other gymnast, the judges are just equally retarded)

[NAKID]

How does he say that Phelps cheated? What meathod did HE use to cheat? If he thinks Omega doctored the times or the photos, that's one thing, but what did Michael Phelps do wrong?

[derby]

are these different than the photos released the day of the race, and that were plastered all over the news the next day, that clearly show that phelps touched first?

non-story.

[Le Pirate]

there was an article on slash-dot yesterday about how a hacker found cached pages from Baidu (chinese equiv. of google) showing that the registration documents for the chinese gymnast were forged. she is actually 14, not 16.

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/20/1259253&from=rss

[He Man]

I guess its lost in translation. They are saying phelps cheated, but in chinese they are saying he didnt legitimately win (which equates to him cheating in english). Aka Omega wont release the photos because they knew phelps didnt win.

The photos are the same photos you see everywhere.
The exact one posted in the chinese paper is this one.




edit: i compared the two. the chinese papers have the photo about .01s before where you can neither see the serbian's hand or phelps hand on the wall yet.
His hands are outside of the water due to nature of the fly. I swam competitively and i know what im talking about but my dad insists that im retarded. I showed him my 1st place Freestyle relay time sheet back from sophmore year in HS, and in the freestyle relay, we won by .01 second as well. I threw away my first place medal and i said i must of cheated. he was pissed of and told me to shut hte make the beast with two backs up lol.

I also said even if we had photos, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to see the difference in .01 seconds. Even on drag races, where there is no question of water. .01 is impossible to see. When i produced photographic evidence, he said they have all been edited. But i asked where did the chinese paper get their photograph from. he said they got it from NBC when it first aired. So supposely the photographs are unedited by the chinese papers, but edited on computer. I dont get it. in the NBC video and photographs, you cannot see the winner. Even if FINA Decided to release the photographs, unless there was a larger margin of who won, you STILL cant see .01s.

It wasnt a hacker who found it. It is ALL public information that can be accessed on servers that automatically back up files on the internet for the purpose of cataloging data.

[Grampa]

MP had finger extensions installed

[DucPete]

I guess its lost in translation. They are saying phelps cheated, but in chinese they are saying he didnt legitimately win (which equates to him cheating in english). Aka Omega wont release the photos because they knew phelps didnt win.

You have the problem of proving something to a believer.  Just like Politics and religion people believe something to such a degree that any evidence or lack of evidence proving anything contrary to their position was fabricated.
The supplied evidence supports the idea that the Chinese girls were too young.  The claim and counter evidence is their passports showing them of legitimate age.  That and they don't look 16 which isn't really evidence.

I think questioning the timing system is HUGE.  I can't over exaggerate how big of a deal that would be.  The thing about the Olympics is the standard of fairness in the system.  Sure there are dopers but the SYSTEM is supposed to be fair.  (Which is one of the problems with Gymnastics and figure skating.)  If you question the timing system than there are no legitimate world records.  There is no standard in which to compare athletes to each other.

Not to say that something like that should be questioned if there is a glaring problem.  But you should have some pretty serious evidence before you try to take down what the essence of the Olympics are on something you don't like.  As a former high school swimmer and college track runner, without the legitimacy of the timing system there is no longer the sport. 

[sbrguy]

exactly you just proved why the omega would be prudent to make sure their timing system is legit bc like you said, take away faith in teh timing devices and now the records mean nothing.

the thing i see with the picture is hard to see, the one guy has his fingers fully extended now what we can't really see bc the cross int eh picture is black is if his fully exteded fingers are touchign the wall at full extension, in other words they are touchingthe wall at that instant but just not bent backwards yet from more pressure. but technically they may be touching the wall.

now what i think peopel think is that since phelps fingers are pressing on the wall harder and are bent back more that he must have touched first to get that way.

but if he ws comgin downward his fingers would naturlaly bend slightly backwards when coming and hittin gthe water or could do this and whne they hit the wlal they bent sliglthy more.

that is the part that i think you could make the argument that the other guy not phelps won, bc the very tips of his fingers might literally touch the wall sooner than phelps.

[He Man]

Here is the photo that removes all doubt about who touched first. (because no one touched yet  )

This is the exact picture as above, just blown up.



Sbrguy you already believe his hand is touching hte wall, and you also beleive Cavics hand seems like its touching the wall but not as hard. infact, hes still just barely there and phelps hand is just barely there as well.

So to be honest, the pictures cant tell .01 unless we saw all 1,000 photos from each of the 4 cameras.

[DucPete]

exactly you just proved why the omega would be prudent to make sure their timing system is legit bc like you said, take away faith in teh timing devices and now the records mean nothing.

Absolutely!    The measurement system should be open to scrutiny.  I just don't think there is much more to really investigate other than question Omega and look at pictures.   The Chinese girls being of age should also be investigated as well.  But Omega has a long standing reputation in time keeping that has been virtually flawless at this level.  The Chinese girls ages, are being contested based on past documents.  Of course that may or may not be legitimate.  

the thing i see with the picture is hard to see, the one guy has his fingers fully extended now what we can't really see bc the cross int eh picture is black is if his fully exteded fingers are touchign the wall at full extension, in other words they are touchingthe wall at that instant but just not bent backwards yet from more pressure. but technically they may be touching the wall.

now what i think peopel think is that since phelps fingers are pressing on the wall harder and are bent back more that he must have touched first to get that way.

but if he ws comgin downward his fingers would naturlaly bend slightly backwards when coming and hittin gthe water or could do this and whne they hit the wlal they bent sliglthy more.

that is the part that i think you could make the argument that the other guy not phelps won, bc the very tips of his fingers might literally touch the wall sooner than phelps.

This is a good point.  But speculation.  Fly by the nature of the stroke is flatter than backstroke, and his fingers are bent are at a much greater angle than the downward angle of the stroke, suggesting his fingers were there longer.  Take that as you will.  Again just speculation.  The evidence is inconclusive.  

And to get to the point of the thread, questioning the Phelps win with inconclusive evidence and a feeling, but yet denying to look at the age of the Chinese girls with potential evidence is hypocritical.  

By the way is anyone officially demanding an investigation into this?  From the sound of the article everyone pretty much agrees Phelps won.

[Scottish]

Whoa! Hold the phone!!! Are you telling me something other than the athletes own skill and talent may have decided who won? This is the Olympics we are talking about. Oh, that's right it is the Olympics, so not so shocked after all.  All sides have been cheating for almost as long as they've gone on. No suprise here, just boredom. The only real race is between the cheaters and those trying to catch them. Sorry to be cynical about this, but it's my .02

[Magnus]

it's all about who has the best doctors and is one step ahead of the testers...

[Statler]

whew...I'm glad nobody saw the mini propellers installed in the pool creating current to swim against in all the lanes but Phelps'     


That would have been bad.         


close one.

[DucPete]

Whoa! Hold the phone!!! Are you telling me something other than the athletes own skill and talent may have decided who won? This is the Olympics we are talking about. Oh, that's right it is the Olympics, so not so shocked after all.  All sides have been cheating for almost as long as they've gone on. No suprise here, just boredom. The only real race is between the cheaters and those trying to catch them. Sorry to be cynical about this, but it's my .02

I believe there is a HUGE difference between the competitors cheating the system and the system cheating the competitors.  Sure, I'd believe some of them are doping.  But for the system itself to be biased puts the whole thing at risk.  For instance look at the French-Russian judging corruption several years back.  Everyone cringes when there's a close competition.  The only reason that survived was because that's kinda the way gymnastics and figure skating are in other venues. 

Since Omega is the official timer of the Olympics, if they are found to be at fault, which world records stand?  Does Bolt lose his 200m WR?  What about every other record?  What should the official time be if the listed times are questionable?

Unless there's some type of smoking gun I can't believe the timing was altered in Phelps' favor. 

[Le Pirate]

I'm not why this is a contraversy. That picture alone tells the story I think. It doesn't matter if his hands were coming down on the pad and the other guys hands were going forward. It's pretty clear who was touching.


I think the gymnastics is a problem due to the fact that people are involved in the scoring. Everything is subjective, and therefore it's hard to question the system.



I really don't think there is any Omega conspiracy though....there is no proof.