Ethanol in a Duc?

[DirtyDuc]

I am wondering if I could run my monster on E85 ethanol?  After all, it is a cleaner burning fuel, which means that it doesn't deposit crud in your motor, fuel lines & fuel injectors (for fuel injected bikes).  And, it's what the Indy 500 cars now run on (they switched from 100% pure ethanol)

I actually emailed Ducati directly & asked them if you could run a Ducati on 100 octane ethanol (like race car fuel) & if carbureted Ducatis were better or worse to run on ethanol then the Fuel Injected bikes.  I got a response about a month later telling me to ask my local Ducati dealer.   r:e)

Anybody try this or have any thoughts?  I know that ethanol can be corrosive to certain types of metals used in some carburetors in older cars but I know nothing about ethanol in Ducatis...

[ducrider45]

Ducati has said no ethinol in there engines.

[COWBOY]

Go to Barnes and Noble and pick up the current Bike! magazine.  The are starting a series of articles about running a Daytona 675 on homemade biofuel (in this case alcohol distilled from Apples).  The article has a section where the used e85 including dyno and pcIII to get a baseline for the coming biofuel.

The short of it is the bike ran like shit without the map being tuned with the pcIII and dyno.  Once that was done they got more HP, a stronger smoother torque curve and only slightly lower MPG.  The only real potential problem they had was that above 13000 rpm (the top end on that bike) the throttle bodies were topping the 80% threshold even hitting 100%.  The fear was melting them.  They tried replacing them with some from a Rocketiii but they wouldn't fit.  They've decided the risk reward was worth it since the bike won't be maxing out on the road that often.  Easy for them to say since they're using the magazines funds (though limited still not their own like yours would be).

If E85 was selling for 2.00 a gallon v. 4.00 for gas I'd be looking into this. Right now the cost diff in my area isn't worth the risk.

[Skyshadow]

Reviving this thread cause now it is cost efficient to go E85. Main questions, concerns and interests in this thread were never addressed either. Does E85 effect the metal on Ducati motors? I have a carb'd bike so all that (^) tuning PCIII mumbo jumbo doesn't concern me. I do know that E85 has the potential for much more power then regular gas (in boosted apps) because my '06 Mitsubishi Evo runs it. It's burns like 110 octane so you can work your timing and get great results. SOOOO, what are the risks of running E85 in my CARB'D bike (what do i need to address)? I mean hell, All gas already contains 10% ethanol. And lastly, can you pull power from E85 in a N/A engine like you can in a Boosted engine?

[J5]

when you use high qty of ethanol you need to use a lot more fuel comparted to normal ULP

so unless its been tuned for ethanol fuel then no

i wouldnt touch it with a barge pole

[Curmudgeon]

i wouldnt touch it with a barge pole

His carb jets will love the water it soaks up too...

[Howie]

E85 in your bike would require major timing and rejeting.  Main jets might need to be increased by as much as 50%.  Btu content of E85 is also considerably less.  In round numbers, a gallon of gasoline has 125,000 BTUs, E10 120,000 BTUs and E85 a whopping 85,000.  This is why fuel economy and performance is reduced with E85.  You will need to advance ignition timing and bump the compression way up, probably around 13-15:1 to see optimum performance out of E85.  Then you have to worry about reduced range on a tank and fuel availability.  As far as I know, 0 in NYC and less than 100 in the whole state.

[ducatiz]

If you have a carbed bike, metal tank, E85 stations on every corner, and are willing to figure it out, then why not?

Ethanol won't hurt any of the components in the system. I would verify that the SAE30 lines in the fuel tank are compatible with it ( think it is not, you will have to change hoses in the tank ).

Also, ethanol sucks up ambient moisture and you will need to think about that.  The carb parts do not like moisture.  If you're running tanks quickly and use a water sequestering chemical (the only one I know of that is proven to work is K100)...

then you might get away with it.

I wonder how many tank fuls of E85 it will take to make it worthwhile though?

and yes, you will be getting 15-25% less mileage per gallon.

[thurmanjr7]

Pros to E85: It burns faster therefore creating more horsepower. It is a cleaner fuel which leaves less deposits in your engine.

Cons to E85: This fuel has little to no lubricant in unlike premium unleaded fuel does, this means that unless an engine is designed to handle the fuel or unless you mix the lubricant with the E85 yourself then after a period of time your engine will start to wear out.

[ducatiz]

Cons to E85: This fuel has little to no lubricant in unlike premium unleaded fuel does, this means that unless an engine is designed to handle the fuel or unless you mix the lubricant with the E85 yourself then after a period of time your engine will start to wear out.

that's a good point.  where will the fuel affect moving parts outside of the cylinder? 

[Skyshadow]

I'm loving all the quick responses, Thanks guys.  As for the mileage loss Ducatiz, interwebz says only 10-15% and my Evo has proven better then that. when I flash my map to E85, my boost goes up to 28Psi from 26 and I get another 50hp to the wheels which is a major plus. (this is all dyno proven) But anyways, after many tanks and doing the numbers I only have about 9-12% MPG loss but E85 is around 12-15% cheaper. Especially when you go from buying premium 91 to cheaper then 87, E85. So 3% more cost effective  As for the lubricant, Chevy said don't put additive lubes in the mix because the %15 gas does that. My last question is geared to what Howie said, So with the less power it puts out... lets say I do get larger jets and dyno tune the timing like on my Evo (forget the MPG) would I see more power then my motor on 91 or would i need to be boosted to see that power change my Evo gets? I'm trying to figure out if I get more power because I can push more boost with E85 because it is less prevalent to pre-detonation or can I get the same power increase none boosted because I tune the timing..?

[ducatiz]

Your Mitsubishi has a knock sensor and various other systems which allow it to adjust for the different characteristics of fuel quality.  Your Ducati does not.

Interwebz estimates of MPG differences with E85 only apply to vehicles with sophisticated fuel delivery systems such as EFI systems that can adjust pulse width of the injectors to lean or enrich fuel on the fly.  Carbureted vehicles cannot do this. 

You can modify your carbed bike for E85, but I guarantee you the MPG difference will be much worse.

[Skyshadow]

Hummm True and true...damn. I still want to try it 

[thurmanjr7]

that's a good point.  where will the fuel affect moving parts outside of the cylinder? 

If I understand your question correctly it shouldn't affect anything else, only cause wear on the cylinder walls.

[Speeddog]

Hummm True and true...damn. I still want to try it 

You'll need to flow about 50% more E85 than gasoline, so it's going to be a big challenge to get the carbs to do it.
Buy a set of carbs now, use those to get it worked out.
That way you'll have your existing unmolested gasoline carbs to fall back on when you get tired of filling up every 100 miles (or less).