Ducati Monster Forum

Maybe this is a dead horse, but thought i would throw this out there.

This is my 3rd year of riding a bike, and although ive heard of countersteering, have not paid much attention if i do it or not.  How many of you consciously practice countersteering around corners?  Is this something people do everytime they go up in the canyons (countersteer around every corner?) I dont know ill have to pay attention next time if im doing it or not. Im probably not.  Sounds like its the best way to make tight turns? Or is countersteering just something you do if you have to make a quick evasive maneuver?

I have read the PACE post on countersteering, and have watched videos on youtube with someone showing you how its done, so i get how you do it, both were lacking the main information though, like WHEN do you use countersteering?  If this is something that should be done around every turn then i def need to practice it and figure out if im doing it or not.

You are doing it, it is just subconscious.

next time you are in the corner try pushing on the inside handle grip a little more and you will see what counter steering is all about.  Definitely something to practice.

you can't ride without it. it initiates your lean, and perpetuates through the turn as well. i read an article about a guy who ran a track, and when people would tell him that countersteering was bogus, and that turning was all about leaning, he would stick them on this bike he had rigged up with the front end welded in place. it takes only one turn without being able to countersteer (consciously or not) to realize that it is indeed real.

that being said, i am relatively new rider, and  can definately say that when i remember to consciously countersteer, i find myself being much more successful in my curves, and much more confident in general.

I never, ever think about counter-steering - when I do, it seems too much like black magic, and I loose my groove.  [moto]

at 20 m/h or more.... it is there believe us...!!  [moto]

Next time you're NOT in a corner, just push on one end of the bar with a finger.  You'll turn that way.

AS Dan said, you can play with the physics of it a bit when you're on a straight.  If you push on the right bar, the wheel will point to the left, you the bike will start to move to the left - this is counter steering in action.  The more you push, the quicker the bike will change it's course, as it will create more lean.  Riders can add to, or remove from this effect by altering the center of gravity on the bike aka leaning your body.

Counter steering lets you have more precise and quicker control over the steering of the bike than simply tossing your body into it. 

Maybe reading 'Total Control' by Lee Parks might help you under stand the actions that are going on. 

Though I don't consciously work coutnersteering 100% of the time - I do consciously work on it.  Improving things like body position as you enter a turn, counter steering, throttle control and line choice are things you should always keep in mind

+1, but it's worthwhile to read up on "rate-of-turning" by both Code and Parks.

One of the things that Lee Parks recommended in his book, Total Control, was to make a run through a twisty road using only the hand on the inside of the turn for steering inputs.  Use that hand both to initiate the turn and to bring the bike back upright at the end.  The main goal of the exercise was to determine if you are unconsciously fighting the turning effort with the other hand.  He claimed that some people find that they turn in a lot quicker that way.

When I tried it, I didn't get any new revelation, because I don't tend to fight the steering at all.  However, since I started out on dirtbikes, I used to have the tendency to pull the outside bar rather than push the inside bar.  Both work, but pushing is better.  It also helps to lean your shoulder into the turn, which automatically helps you make the countersteering move.

Ultimately, I recommend trying the exercise of making all steering inputs with the inside hand, to help you better understand countersteering.  If you can get on a road with lots of bends, it helps clarify what is happening.

I found it easier to understand counter-steering on a bicycle (assuming you have one):

1) Find a nice straight road or path free of traffic.
2) Get going at least 10 mph.
3) Keep your grip of the handlebars really light, just the minimum you need for balance.
4) Push slightly forward on the handlebars on one side (for example, on the left).  You will see the bike start to track to the right very briefly, then it will lean to the left and you will start to turn left.
5) Once you have played with that, now try doing the same thing but consciously trying to keep your body upright (no lean either way).  You will see the bike do the same thing, but it will be slower to lean.
6) Now do it and consciously lean to the left side as well.  You will probably not even notice the tracking to the right, and the bike will lean very quickly to the left this way.  This is the way most people turn bikes without thinking about it.
7) Now consciously try to keep the handlebars straight to the front (this is hard) while leaning to one side.  You will see it is very difficult to make the bike turn without some movement of the handlebars.

It's the same principle as on a motorcycle.  If you feel that you are just leaning without counter-steering, what is probably going on is that your arms are transmitting the motion of your lean forward enough to cause the counter-steering action.

Hmm... keith code's NO B.S. bike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nRUeEkS644

Interesting video..   [cheeky]

gee i guess i am countersteering........ :o

all of us must be or we wouldnt make it around the first turn.....

As talked about, and shown in that video - you have to do it.  The basics of it are pretty intuitive and natural feeling, so it's pretty easy to discount or *think* you're not doing it since it's not really a conscious action.  But if you take some time to run some test/drills/whatever you wanna call it you'll realize how much more control you can exert on the bike with a little more or less pressure on the bars. 

and did you know...

that counter steering is the reason why children fall off bicycles after the training wheels come off?

training wheels teach them to throw the bike into a lean which then causes a counter steer.

so the first thing they do is try and pull the bar left and lean left....and the bike wants to go to the right!

it's a beautiful thing the counter steer, you start with an action that causes a reaction that sends you into the corner!

Though I have yet to practice/experience counter steering on a moto, the whole idea absolutely mystified me until one day I tried it on my mountain bike. The bike responded so quickly that I almost ate shit on the first input. It sure doesn't take much to get the motion going.

Knowing how to countersteer can save your ass.

If you are ever one to push your riding capability and find your self too fast into a corner.  Your choices are to be stiff and throw your weight into the turn likely high-siding or going into on-coming traffic; hit the back brake which will right the bike (oooh not good); or you can countersteer... push on the inside (turn-side) grip and the bike will lean and tighten up the turn allowing you to push the travel wear of your tire out to the edge of your chicken strips.  Knowing how to countersteer is a technique that advanced riders use to have more options to their turn angles.  It is one thing to understand that you have countersteered.  It is another to practice it as a riding technique that you can rely on.

Chicken Strips:
Look at your back tire and measure the distance between the outside groove on your tire and the wear mark (the chicken strip).  Most riders have a chicken strip that is 1/2 inch wide or wider.  This is the additional lean angle that the bike is capable of using to leaning into the turn (under appropriate conditions).

After I read about counter steering in Keith Code's book " A twist of the wrist " I couldn't believe how easy and positive the small amout of push on the inside corner handlebar grip made cornering at speeds I was very uneasy with before I started using counter steering. It was so easy it was almost like magic. It made my S4Rs feel like it was on rails. There are other people that say you should push the outside grip but I haven't tried that yet.

well... I think you would "pull" the outside grip

this vid is also useful...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8IdTq3_3WI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nRUeEkS644

This is shorter clip than the one I've seen but it gives you an idea what inputs are needed to get the bike to turn.

I dont understand.  Counter steering is just about the only way i turn.  I guess i learned it in the MFS and it just stuck.  The only time i turn the bike as if twisting the handlebars like a steering wheel or how you would steer on a jet ski is when im going really slow.  I find that trying to turn like how you would on a jet ski at higher speeds just makes you counter steer.  What the mystery for me is why so many people think that counter steering is a mystery to them. 

Im no cornering demon; just a noob with 3 years of riding so far but counter steering is just so natural.  I dont recommend counter steering on a jet ski.  I dont think it works.   I practice counter steering by doing slaloms on the road with imaginary pylons.  Its fun when your in traffic but the flow is still 40+ mph. 

I recall them talking about it in my MSF session, but at the time I really didn't 'get it'.  With my size and the lack of size and speed of the msf bikes, a bit of body English got me through well enough.  I was counter steering (looking back) as a result of my change in body position, but it wasn't a conscious action that it is now.

It was while I was still doing my 'get to know you' rides on my 620 and reading 'Proficient Motorcycling' that it clicked for me.  I understood exactly what they meant and how the action/concept could be applied.  Of course, I'm no pro so I'm still working at all the aspects of being a good rider - but understanding counter steering can improve you control of the bike a lot in just a small amount of time. 

There have been a couple occasions where my line is too wide, and not good where I've though/said to myself 'More Push!'  and added some more push to the inside bar to lean the bike more and fix up that line.

Playing slalom with imaginary cones is a good way to experiment just like tony says.  Find a quiet, straight road get the bike up to 35 or so, and sit bolt upright on the central axis of the bike - no leaning.  Then simply push gradually, but firmly on one side of the bar.  You'll quickly find the bike headed that way.  Push on the other side and back you go. That's counter steering.
Add some body english and you can swoop the bike back and fourth at that speed in a pretty dramatic fashion and still have good control

Unless you are doing very slow speed maneuvers, you are countersteering.  Right after I started riding a motorcycle and not really "getting" the concept of countersteering, I was surprised to learn I had been doing it for years on my bicycle.   [roll]  Who knew! 

I goof around with countersteering on my boring commute to work sometimes - doing weaves in my lane.
When I am actually riding "the pace" on the street or when racing, I find myself pulling on the opposite bar MUCH more than pushing

IMO, you should work on pushing the inside bar more.  Pulling the outside bar forces your body into a position that counter to what you want.  Pulling means your shortening that arm moving your weight closer to the outside.  More of your weight on the outside means a greater lean angle/less traction for any given situation - and a greater potential of scraping hard parts. 

By pushing you will naturally move your body towards what you're pushing on.  In this case the inside bar, so more of you body weight will be on the inside of the turn resulting in less lean and more traction. 

Besides all that crap - pushing just feels more natural to me.

Good example of countersteering that you can truly feel....high speed empty highway lane change.

The higher the speed the more force it takes at the bars.   One to initiate and then an opposite to get the bike back upright in the new lane.

You will be amazed at how quickly a bike going rather fast can change lanes, but it takes two very clear, solid, and seperate inputs at the bars before you are going straight ahead in the new lane.


a lot of people countersteer in the twisties and say they can't feel themselves do it or aren't aware of it.   This "drill" makes it crystal clear.   A stable bike at speed takes quite an effort to change direction.

I must say that doing this is pretty fun.  Its two pushes side to side that has such a nice rhythm to it that really lets you feel your self counter steer. 

Wayne Rainey once said he bent....yes, make the beast with two backsing BENT, a handlebar while trying to angrily countersteer his MotoGP bike into a corner after entering way too hot....  :o But guess what... he made it through the turn!!

Most bikes (Monsters included obviously) will gladly lean + turn at waaaay higher speeds than you think (or your confidence allows you to), if NO input is applied to the outer bar, and a firm + authoritative countersteer push is initiated on the inside bar....Point is, when you tense up on the bars because you feel like you entered the turn too hot, it's just making the problem worse.... A firm countersteer input w/the inside hand will usually bring you around, as opposed to the death grip, in which case you're steering with the outer hand as well without even noticing it, thus causing you to run wide....  :-\

I'd learned what countersteer was a long time ago, but never appreciated it until my first trackday a month ago.

There was this left hand sweeper that was whipping my ass, I couldn't nail it and apex it right. The control rider for our group and a friend of mine watched me one lap and suggested I use more countersteer - and it worked ! Once I had that part figured out I started pushing a little harder (not figuatively) and by the end of the say I was scraping footpegs.

At my 2nd trackday a couple of days ago I countersteered more and pushed the front end harder than I ever had before and I could keep up with gixxer 600's and a lady on a R1 until we got to the straight where they would leave me only to catch up by turn 5 or 6 (10 turn track).

And this was the result of learning to countersteer.
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s236/grubbywarrior/hooliganisms/Picture064.jpg)

Not necessarily true.  Hard parts of your motorcycle may start scraping before the edge of the tire touches the road.  My Monster scrapes the kickstand on the left and the exhaust can on the right.  Pushing further could cause a lowside crash, so keep in mind that the tire's profile does not exclusively indicate your potential lean angle.

+1

It completely depends on your tire profile and what hangs lowest on your bike. 

One thing that seems to have been overlooked and often is, is to "weight" the inside peg. This settles a bike better than anthing else and actually halves the amount of countersteering input needed. It helps you as a rider maintain a "neutral" relation to the bars, allowing you to make mid-corner changes easier and not upset things from bumps etc. Even in not-so-hyper riding, and as the pace picks up it magnifies. This also helps to reduce hand & arm fatigue from countersteering input. This is more evident during a track day.

Unless maybe you're riding the "Dragon" or similar road....   [evil]

+1

I figured that out too while hanging off. But it was late in the day before I learned that. My shoulders were tired by lunchtime, I wish I'd have figured that out earlier in the day.

On my monster the mufflers drag before anything else and I still got chicken strips.

Obviously counter-steering works, but I don't see how the "no BS" bike proves the concept.  Unless I'm missing something, the only thing that bike proves is that you can't steer a bike that doesn't allow the user to turn the front end.  But that's not even true: lots of riders can steer a bike without putting their hands on the grips.  For an extreme example, check out a video of Christian Pfeiffer doing tight circles and figure-eights with his hands off the bars.

Interestingly enough, when I went to Spencer's school, he didn't even mention counter-steering until somebody asked a question about it.  He said it works, but he prefers to concentrate on body position, weighting the inside peg, and using knee pressure on the side of the tank.  However, Spencer explains corners much differently than Code.  In any case, I tried his suggestion, and I think it improved my riding.

Modified to add: check out this video around 1:58; Pfeiffer can turn without using the handlebars. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBw0yH509lw

OK, I'm naughty, I shouldn't reply to my old post, but there was an interesting discussion about this a few years ago on the other board.  In particular, check out the videos that Scott Nelson made (if they still exist): http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/riding-techniques/102168-riding-technique.html

Code just discussed this recently when asked.  He said something to the effect of countersteering being the fastest way to change direction.  Not that body postion and weighting pegs doesn't effect the bike.  And those things become more important as you're making adjustents.  We're talking basics here.

But when the bus pulls out in front of you on the street, please don't think you will change the direction of your bike quickly enough by weighting a peg.  Crank those bars.

countersteering and correct peg weight and correct body position works fine.

countersteering itself with you smack dab in the middle of the seat works fine (goldwing anyone?).

hands off the bars or no input to bars, and no amount of monkeying off or standing on one peg will make you miss that bus.  splat.

OK, that makes sense.  I must have misunderstood the no-BS bike.  I thought the implicit argument was: you can't turn a bike with fixed handlebars, therefore countersteering is how a bike turns (bad premise, bad conclusion).

As for Spencer's advice, he didn't suggest that we shouldn't counter-steer.  He just suggested concentrating on things other than pushing on the inside grip (or pulling on the outside grip).  Your bus example is probably outside the scope of what he was teaching, but in that situation MSF asks students to let the bike move underneath them when swerving; in other words, they don't want you to try to lean when you swerve (I'm not an MSF instructor, but this is what they've told me).

If swerving around a pothole I might agree as it's just a few feet in each direction....the bike does a little jink underneath you quickly.     If swerving as far as the next lane I'd lean like mad with the bike.  Sometimes an escape route on the street is no different than a quick high speed turn.  I wouldn't sit up while the bike leans for that in any scenario.

MSF has an obstacle that is roughly equivalent to a lane-change that requires a quick left-right (or right-left) and simulates swerving to avoid a hazard.  For that exercise, they don't teach leaning (at least not in this area).  I'm not sure what I'd do in a panic situation, but it would be very hard not to lean.

Heres a great vid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc)

I didn't think it was possbile not to use countersteer at decent speeds?

yeah yeah, good 'ole Keith Code...  One clarification though, when Code came up with the No BS bike, it was essentially a response to the other schools that focused a good bit on body positioning, footpeg weighting, etc and Code thought he would throw them all a big FU by making a bike that you couldn't steer much with just body positioning.  Classic Code attitude, "I'm right and everybody else is stupid"

Have you spoken to him in person?   Rather humble and pleasant about other schools of thought.   Have you read some of his recent stuff?   He says he teaches what he has found to work and that while he enjoys projects like the no BS bike, he says they are no means scientific experiments but help him to understand whats going on.


I'm not saying he is the be all and end all of riding techniques.  Far from it.

We've had some great posts here and on the other board about riders who have improved their times quite a bit with teaching from other schools (and schools of thought).

But after talking to him in person and having him say things like "why don't you do a few laps and try it out and then we'll talk about what you think"  I find statements like the one above a little dramatic and misleading.

(disclaimer:  woodyracing is obviously a very competent track rider...I am not......we're not talking merrits of riding schools here)

I just got back from another Spencer school, so I was able to clarify and reinforce some of the things I learned last summer.  In any case, they acknowledge that counter-steering is how a bike gets around, but they feel riders are better served by concentrating on things other than pushing or pulling on the grips.  Consequently, they strongly emphasize body positioning.

I've never been to a Code school (I paid for one a few years ago, but they called me back and cancelled the session for lack of interest), but from what I understand, there are several differences between his style and Spencer's (e.g. trail-braking, flicking a bike into the corner).  However, the mechanics of counter-steering doesn't seem to be one of them.

to address the original topic, try pulling sometime.  i.e., get going about 20 and pull the left side toward you.  you will start tracking to the right. 

that said, lately, my biggest focus is keeping the outside lighter than the inside; loosening my grip and lifting my foot a bit on the left when i'm turning right.

Finally, a little focus on peg weighting. Sort of, I'm not sure about "lifting" vs "weighting" but it's a start!  [moto]