Ducati Monster Forum

I'm very happy to report finally getting my 2010 Monster 1100s w/ABS with Darmah skins ;D ;D ;D 

Here are photos (click link for larger):

(http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4728t.jpg)http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4728.jpg (http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4728.jpg)	(http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4729t.jpg)http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4729.jpg (http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4729.jpg)
(http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4733t.jpg)http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4733.jpg (http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4733.jpg)	(http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4731t.jpg)http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4731.jpg (http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4731.jpg)
(http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4732t.jpg)http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4732.jpg (http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4732.jpg)	(http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4730t.jpg)http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4730.jpg (http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/1100sPics/_DSC4730.jpg)

More mods to come:
EVR Slipper
Comp.Werkes Fender Elim
CRG Lane Splitter mirrors
Lost more CF  [bacon]
And more I'm sure...

I'm finding it pretty much impossible to get into Neutral when the engine is running... when it's not, I can get it in neutral no problem... any thoughts?  I've got an EVO Clutch Slave, Rizoma Rearsets, and EVO III clutch lever.  Are there adjustments to be made or does the bike just need to be broken in more?

sounds like theres air in your slave. try bleeding it.

also do u have the bigbore evo slave? People say the bigger one sometimes makes ith arder for you to find neautral.

The fork reflectors are bothering me, I'm just sayin ;D

 [cheeky] they're on the list along with removing all the frame stickers and the toomuchmoney stickers.

Love those skins, looks awesome.  [beer]

I wish I could afford a new Monster, they are really starting to grow on me and the whole skins thing is sweet (though I could see them getting addicting).

LOVE those skins!

The new Monster is really starting to grow on me, especially in your first pic, I love that slim sexiness of the seat and cowl.  I just wish the sub-frame matched the trellis...

Anyone got tips on removing all the stickers and saving them?  (Frame stickers, Termi, etc)... don't want to lose the info, just want to lose the eyesore ;-)

Beautiful bike!   [thumbsup]

Also, what camera did you use?

I carefully removed my frame stickers and relocated em to the subframe out of sight under the seat.Not familiar with your levers, but I had similar issue right after I installed my Pazzo levers.  Try adjusting your clutch lever to its longest reach (making it a long grab) coz its possible that if its adjusted closer in towards the bars that theres not enough travel to fully disengage the clutch.

Skins look great BTW  [thumbsup]

I want to go on record against Termi sticker removal.

Goo Gone (not goof off) saturated on small area of wrag. Rub outside corner of sticker and let it soak for a minute or so. While this is going on put a hair dryer on it. Then lift a corner and peel. You can use the hair dryer as you peel if necessary. The stickers are hardy and not easily torn. I stuck mine to the outside of plastic bag my owner's manual came in.

Awesome.  Good luck with it.  [thumbsup]

That bike is sweet.

 [bacon]

Glad you finally got your bike home!

Of course, since it is a brand new bike, it may take a little while for the clutch to break in and neutral (while running at a stop) may not be the easiest to find.

Would I bother messing with anything other than lever pull settings at this point?... NO.

This is because your installing the EVR slipper clutch, and it wouldn't make sense to perform these adjustments for the stock clutch if your not going to be using it anyway.

Just my two cents..

could the play on the clutch level be an issue? or even some air in the clutch line?

is it only neutral or are you feeling a hard lurch when shifting with the clutch is pulled in?

No lurching... and very easy to get neutral when the engine is off... when riding it shifts just fine... at a stop light it takes extra effort to shift and I skip right over neutral every time... very strange but could just need to be broken in.


Nikon D3 with a 24-70mm f/2.8 lens

Sharp looking bike man. Ditch the emission canister [puke]

Already on the list  ;D

mine occasionally does what you are describing. Last week in my driveway after a long ride.

It wouldn't hurt to bleed the clutch and wire tie the lever to the grip overnight.  There could be a little trapped air.

Bleed seemed fine today.  I've strapped down the lever for the night and see what happens tomorrow.

Alrighty, next question:

I'm getting antsy to install the EVR Slipper sitting on my desk...

I don't have a clutch holding tool.  I heard from a couple sources that I could just have someone hold down the rear break and I should be able to do what I need to do.  Is that right? 

If I put it in gear, have someone pushing on the rear break, should I be able to remove the stock clutch and install the new one and get it to the correct torque settings?

I want to know before I get half way in and find out I need a tool and then I can't ride for a week while I wait for UPS.

Thanks for the help guys!

AWESOME! [drool]

I was afraid by the title you had done some stupid-assed LOST themed bike.
This looks good. [thumbsup]

It's worth waiting for the tool. Getting 186 Newton Meters is not as easy as you'ld think without one. It's possible, but why half-ass anything.  with a slipper, you'll want to inspect the plates more often just to make sure they wear appropriately, and (im not sure on the EVR), but many require alittle librication time and again for the best performance on wear surfaces. A clutch holding tool is invaluable for these situations.

Is 186ft/lbs the right spec for the 1100?  I can't find that info anywhere and I'm having no luck acquiring a workshop manual.  The EVR doesn't require much maintenance or lubrication, it's a unique slipper method where the "ramps" are right up at the pressure plate.

stock clutch hub retaining nut is 32mm, 186 NM (brainfart on unit).

most aftermarket slippers use a 30mm retaining nut. 186NM still.

(138 ft/lbs)

Way back in the good ole days (I mean way back) a Ducati rider knew to shift into neutral while still rolling up to a stop.

I still do it today on my bike just from habit and my bike only gets finicky when the clutch plates have worn very thin and the stack height is off spec.

LA

Web, make sure you understand that it is 136 ft/lbs, do not, I repeat do not try to crank it to 186!

Also make sure you do not over tighten your basket bolts or they can snap.

If I can`tnget my bike in neutral right away at a light I just roll it forward a hair while trying to shift from 1st to neutral. It works every time.

Roger that.  What's the ft/lbs on those bolts?  I'm under the impression they're 35Nm (26ft/lbs)?

I don't remember exactly what it is, or if it varies much by model, but I remember mine as being right around 20 ft/lbs on the 1098, so the 25 is probably right (it should stay the same as oem torque specs).

I didn't check the 1100 shop manual, but most Ducati models are 38Nm. You can download the install instructions for the EVR slipper clutch here: http://www.mota-lab.com/downloads/EVR230-INSTRUCTIONS.pdf (http://www.mota-lab.com/downloads/EVR230-INSTRUCTIONS.pdf)

I was about to say "I've got those already..." but then I read this file and it's much more specific to my application (not exactly but much closer) so thanks!  [beer]

Yeah I took the original instructions and improved them. Also added some more parts to the diagram as we send them out with new basket bolts, o-ring, both size input shaft nuts, springs, spring retainer bolts, etc...

Alrighty, so this weekend my project is installing this EVR slipper... work has gotten in the way of doing it any sooner, sadly.  But I feel good about knocking it out this weekend!!

The Next "big" project for me is buying/installing this baby:
(http://www.bellissimoto.com/images/Duc_Hub_Assembly_-_Magnesium_Carrier_-_Spin.JPG)

But I have no idea how to even begin.  I've looked through the tutorials and learned how to adjust the chain tension and getting the bolts torqued down.  But does anyone have any step by step how-to on getting the stock sprocket off and installing this one?  And what kind of tools are going to be necessary?

hardest part of that is sourcing the 41mm (iirc), socket.  Check out speedymoto to see if they have the 41/46mm wheel socket instock.

I found a M1100 Workshop Manual on ebay.... maybe have a search around there....

+1 on the Speedymoto wheel nut tool..... Also getting those things off is much easier if you have some kind of rattlegun, I just use an inexpensive electric item bought from my local hardware store.  156Nm on the 41mm sprocket side and 176Nm on the 46mm RHS.

Northern Tool and Equipment is where I got my 46mm. They have cheap rattle guns as well assuming you got the air.

I've been looking on eBay and everywhere else and really can't find one for the 1100... it's quite strange.  If anyone sees one floating out there let me know!

Anyone who knows anything about removing the clutch hub from the 1100 let me know.  I've got the center hub off, but the main hub is still on there and it just won't budge.  Everyone says it's supposed to slide right off, but needless to say it didnt and it just ain't budging. 

Here's a pic of where I am currently (and have been for 4 hours now with no change)
(http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/ClutchInnerHubStuck.JPG)

Okay... much further along now... already at the next problem that has me in a holding pattern now until Monday...

The shaft is larger than the standard M20 size... I hope/expect it'll be the M25 and I'm getting one sent to me and should be here Monday so we'll know then.

Here are pictures of the EVR nut (left) and the stock nut (right):
(http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/ClutchNuts.JPG)
(http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/ClutchNutHeight.JPG)

I tried just putting the stock nut on it, but it's too tall and presses against the EVR pressure plate.  So now I just wait...  :(

Cheer up, I dropped a few random cool stickers, and a rare Italian artifact in the box with your larger nut/washer :)

You know how to create silver linings!  Thanks for all your help on this!  [beer] [beer] [beer]
Keep getting in all the cool stuff and I'll keep sending my paychecks your way  ;D


On another note, I just discovered something about that stock nut::  If you turn it upside down (put the bolt head towards the hub) the other end is pretty much exactly the same size as the pressure plate bearing.... and with the bearing installed in the pressure plate, there is a 1/8"-1/4" gap between the bearing and the nut... meaning it COULD work...  Worth the risk?  Not quite sure now that the proper stuff is being sent my way.  But the tinkerer inside of me is damn curious.

(http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/NutInPlate.JPG)
Image of the stock nut upside-down and fully inside of the pressure plate like something naughty.

I would have to say do not chance it. Last thing you want to do is gouge up the inside of your pressure plate and have to wait even longer to finally ride your bike!

Completely agree.  Garage is buttoned up till the new nut arrives  ;D

Why can't you just grind down the stock nut to match EVR?

You could grind it down, but that is a lot of grinding on a hardened steel part, which is not going to be fun at all, and it's certainly not anything I would consider doing when the proper nut is only 2 days away from arriving.

Woohoo!  Just got the new bolt delivered from Bellissimoto, and it fits just perfectly!  I'll finish up the install tonight or tomorrow and update with pictures!!

Screw pictures tell us how the bike rides with that slipper!!

Too sloshed to go riding but I'm very happy to report it's all together and working like it should be!  Ride report tomorrow night :-)

 [beer]

(http://www.theatresm.com/DucatiStuff/EVRSlipper.JPG)
Crappy cell phone picture, too lazy to get out my nice cam for now :-P

Ride Report:

1) The bike does seem to take off a bit quicker now with the ligher clutch.  Didn't push it hard enough to feel the slipper effect but I'm sure that'll happen in time :-)

2) The friction zone has moved.  When I have the clutch lever all the way to the bar, the bike is in "neutral" with no problems.  As soon as I move it even 1/2" away from the bar it starts engaging.  The zone seems a bit larger than it was when stock and it's fully engaged about 1" before the lever is fully released.

3) Shifting when the bike is at idle RPM is really hard.  If I've got the throttle just a little open I'm able to shift okay (still impossible to get into neutral when it's running).  So upshifting is fine when I'm on the move, no problems.  But I have to stay on the gas a bit to down shift when slowing or else I really have to put my weight on the gear lever.

Very odd problems as far as shifting goes, I wonder if the clutch lever/push-pin isn't pushing the pressure plate out far enough; or if the EVR standard clutch-stack height is too high.  If it's the latter then some wearing in should solve that problem.

She's pretty though ain't she?

That was the cause of similar issues on mine (not slipper though).  I mentioned it already.... but have you tried operating the clutch with the lever adjusted at its longest reach?  Or swapped back to the stock lever to see if the issue goes away or changes?

And yeah, she is mighty pretty  [thumbsup]

I just did that -- set the lever to the longest reach.  Seemed to make shifting much better.  Still no go on finding neutral while the engine is running but I'm gonna try bleeding it another time and see what happens.  I'm starting to think it's the Evolutizone Clutch Slave that is causing that problem.


UPDATE:
I bled the clutch at the master and the slave once again.  There were little tiny bubbles coming out of the master for about 3 pump-rounds of bleeding.  And only one round of little bubbles at the slave.  Should be a little better now... next week I'll give it another go.

Next Question:
The pressure plate seems a little off kilter... it's barely noticeable when the bike is off and I pull in the clutch lever, but one side of it is maybe a few mm further out than the other side.  When the bike is in neutral at idle and I pull the lever, the plate definitely has a minute wobble to it -- small enough that I'm probably the only one that would notice while looking at the bike. 

I took out the plate to check the bearing and it seemed fine.  The push-rod rotated within the bearing without any noticeable arc in its spin.  So it's gotta be the springs perhaps or just the way the EVR plate is designed.  Operationally nothing seems out of the ordinary but I'm like a father wanting everything to be PERFECT! 

Any thoughts?

Just one.

My bike appears to do the same thing while in neutral and it is also very slight (though when in gear it appears to go away), anyways I think it might just be because of the actual vibration from the motor/pulses on the crankshaft.

Either way I've been using mine for years and 12,000+ miles without any issues.

Okay sounds like I shouldn't worry too much.

As far as getting the bike into neutral (which was a problem even before the slipper) I did just notice that the gear-change lever arm (connected to the gear change shaft on the engine) is sitting at the 5 o'clock position.  Could this be any part of the problem?  Should it be sitting more at 6 o'clock?  I can't tell if 5 o'clock is extreme enough to cause trouble getting into neutral... haven't touched it yet but if anyone knows about this let me know.

So this not-getting-into-neutral thing is killing me (and my fingers).  Currently my theory is that the problem is all caused by the EVO 28.5mm Clutch Slave the dealer installed before I picked up the bike (since I wasn't able to get into neutral on the stock clutch either).  It's likely not disengaging enough with the lever pulled in.  The EVR slipper doesn't leave much room for lessening the stack height.  So two questions:

1) Is there any way to shim the push-rod either at the slave or at the pressure plate to increase the distance it pushes out the pressure plate -- safely?

2) If/when changing back to the stock clutch slave do I need to drain the fluid or is it just a "swap & bleed" kind of thing?

PS: I have already bled the lines multiple times, and adjusted my clutch lever to the furthest reach.

The 28 evo slave should not have issues. I've used it on a stock, as well as on 2 slippers on m1100s (mine and a friends, stm and a bucci). None had issues with disengagement. 

1) I'ld check the lever adjustment first, it's adjustable, but the further in you put it, the less separation will occur.
2) The STM clutch uses a small washer prior to the push-out bearing which provides alittle more push length for the plate.  I think this would be better than shimming the pushrod itself. Washer between the PP and Push-Out.
3) 16x18 master will push more fluid (but will be firmer) Much nicer than the stock master (just saying, it's a tight piece)
4) Double check #1.  I have seen so many Dry clutches with this issue simply because the user adjusted the lever so close to the bar that it was IMPOSSIBLE to separate the plates. You want enough reach for separation to occur. It won't if you don't have enough.

1&4) I've got the lever all the way out away from the bar so that it has the maximum movement when I pull it in.  I don't have any further to go on that.
3) Out of $$ for that kind of upgrade, but I'll certainly keep it in mind.
2) Now that's the kind of idea I was wondering about.  But I've gotta keep an eye on the clutch not engaging fully either if I put a washer there right?  And could I put a washer in the EVO slave behind the smaller bearing in it -- same effect right?

I been sayin' this for days now.  If you have the aftermarket lever adjusted all the way out like we're sayin...... then if it were me... the next thing I would do is revert back to the stock lever.  Much less piss-farting around than changing back to the stock slave.... 

I'ld be hesitant to put anything in the slave.   The last thing you'ld want to do is have a sealing issue there. It's not fun to push the bike or wait for roadside because you made a mistake.  I'm sure it's possible, but I wouldn't test it.  There's nothing important between the PP and the P/O bearing, so putting a washer there is nothing at all. 

Did you make sure that your free-play adjuster is properly set? It's the little nut on the pushpin for the plunger of the master.

use a smaller piston slave.

the big pistons slave sell because people think they will be better. it is not because they work better. While the clutch pull may be lessened, I find that the engagement is quicker and at a different part of the lever range.

When slaves used to begin leaking almost immediately, an aftermarket slave was a great thing to buy. Its just not the same situation as it was. Its a bling piece with a very small change in actual performance.

isnt the 28.5mm the smaller piston slave, the 30.5mm is the bigger one.

Levers arent an issue when you have them adjusted all the way out. And theres nothing wrong with puttin a spacer behind the bearing on the stock slave. Thats how they use to come with the shorter push rods for the older bikes. I used to use a few washers stacked up to get the right height for complete disengagement.

The mechanical change is still the same - 30mm slave requires 25% less force, 28mm slave a bit less, etc... as the stock slave piston diameter never changed. The design of the stock slave did though and it seals better now so as you said so there are virtually no more leaking slaves like there used to be. I can't remember the last time I heard of an OEM slave cylinder (made after 2001) leaking!

I have a bad left wrist from a snowboarding mishap so I have to use the largest slave possible to make the stress as little as possible on my wrist - otherwise I'm dying at the end of a day of riding!

Bling is definitely the #1 motivation on these guys though  [thumbsup]

You know why I hate the little problems the most?

Because they are the hardest to find.


That said, since you have adjusted your clutch lever, and bled the system, there is little else it could be with regards to why your clutch is not getting pushed out far enough.

Certainly you can try switching clutch slaves or levers, but both of those cost money that you shouldn't have to spend...


Since this problem is still kind of vague, I would try to isolate it a little more first.

When you pull in the clutch lever, with the bike in gear, does the clutch still feel engaged? Or is the bike happy and neutral?

This should be enough to tell you if your problem is somewhere with regards to the clutch not being able to open enough (basically lever or slave).

If the bike acts correct while the lever is pulled in, then you should have the correct amount of piston travel and your problem is probably at the rearsets.

So where are we with regards to other solutions?

Well, I unfortunately do not have any first hand experience with the Rizoma rearsets on the M1100, so I can't tell you about the position of the shift lever and if that is what is causing your problem, and as far as using a spacer in the slave...

I wouldn't recommend it except perhaps as a last resort, because it would have to be the perfect depth or you will find your clutch slightly engaged and slipping under acceleration (which is much worse than your current problem).



Hope some of this helped, and make sure and post up some pictures of the complete bike!

Regardless the piston travels a certain distance that will disengage the clutch per each pump of the clutch lever. As long as this distance is enough to disengage the clutch, then you should be able to find neutral. The distance it travels will change if there are other fluids in the system, or air... but you bleed the clutch.

The piston will set it self against the push rod no matter what so if its a little short, a little long the piston will jsut sit further foward or further back, but it will still travel the same amount.

Putting in shims is okay if the rod is just simply not long enough. but it would have to be a significant difference in the length of the rod to justify it...

Something doesnt add up....

Another way to see if its fully disengaging is to look at the pressure plate while in neutral and cluthc lever ALL The way in. ideally,the pressure plate should seperate enough so it stops spinning completely, or is barely spinning and can be stopped with a light touch, if it is spinning in neutral, it just means that theres enough force so the friction plates are dragging the whole system along ( its not fully disengaged....)

Ah hah!  This is something I didn't know because it's my first dry clutch and the EVR is the first time I've watched an open dry clutch.  Sooo in neutral with the clutch lever all the way in, the pressure plate does continue to spin!.  So I need to look for the right adjustments so that this doesn't happen and it'll tell me if I've got it.  Good to know!

I've found that adjusting the pivot point as well as the lever reach is making a difference... the EVO III levers I got from Bellissimoto allow me to adjust both.  So with the pivot point all the way out (all the way to the left) and the reach at it's max, I am able to get it into neutral.  Only problem with that is that the maxed pivot point position moves when the lever is pulled in because of the angles... and this doesn't seem good for the lever.

Getting closer but yeah this is a bugger.

u can have it spin but be close to fully disengaged, so as long as u can stop it easily with a finger, i would say dont worry to much about it.


THats not an invitation to shove your hand in the clutch and break your finger though!!!!! Im sure youre smart enough to realize when the clutch is not disengaged and you can get hurt.

I should have been more specific, sorry.

It is natural for the clutch plate to spin with the lever pulled in, what I meant was if you could feel the clutch still engaged with the lever pulled in all the way, like as though the bike still wanted to creep forward under it's own power, or if the idle became rough because of that semi-engagement.

stack height

pressure plate index mark alignment with the correct spring post (may not apply to newer models)

residual air (every month I do a quick one squeeze bleed on the slave cylinder)  don't pump it up let it sit overnight...

attach hose to bleed nipple begin to depress lever while opening the valve....close valve and then release lever

if you pump the handle a lot first you will disperse the air bubbles back into the fluid...undisturbed they will regather where you want them up by the bleeder valve

If you're going to end up trying a spacer, watch the clutch as you pull in the lever. Note how far the lever keeps being released from when you see the pressure plate stop moving. I assume without knowledge of the EVR slipper, that there's spring pressure holding the plate down (this I know, i don't assume). But that the springs are most likely not specialized to the M1100 (this I assume).

You are most likely getting 170hp+ worth of pp holding down power, while only putting out 90hp.  There's a good chance for some safe marginal decrease in the amount of force needed to maintain the back-torque from your motor compared to that of the 1198/1098 etc. 

Based on this, it should be safe to space the clutch slightly, but not much.  You don't need much, however, as very little travel is needed to get complete disengagement. I'ld double check stack height as well, and see if you can get a slightly thinner aluminum plate to replace one of the ones in your pack. This will give alittle extra clearance as well when needed.

This is very interesting.  I did get the EVR stainless spring pack for it, I wonder if I couldn't get away with some "weaker" springs to lighten the clutch pull... does anyone make such a thing specifically for Monsters vs. 1x98s?


I want to thank everyone for your thoughts and help on this issue.  I'm happy to report that I've got it sorted out now and the shifting is like butter and I can get into neutral at stoplights quite easily!  The solution was to adjust the pivot point on my EVO III lever all the way out and then to put in a rubber tube between the pivot point holder and the lever to keep the point from shifting when pulling in the lever... I'll post pictures tomorrow to explain what the hell I'm talking about.  It's totally safe and works like a charm without any spacers needed on the push-rod!

shouldn't be a problem removing 2 of the 6 opposing springs.  Once again, no firsthand EVR knowledge, but I haven't seen a competitor yet where you couldn't.