Ducati Monster Forum

Just gauging opinions and how hard this would be...

I know people will say "why not just buy an 1100", but right now as it stands, my 696 is very modded and I have far too much time, money, and blood sweat and tears into it to justify selling it... The reason I got the 696 over 1100 was that the 1100 was not out yet when I got the 696.... So, I am already looking forward to a winter mod.

I have been throwing the idea around of a SSS conversion, however, this is merely an aesthetic look and would be pretty pricey for everything(sss, additionaly parts, tire, wheel, etc)....

However, an 1100 engine swapped in place of the 696 seems pretty straightforward and I think I would be happier with the end product...  Other than an 1100 ECU, what else would it require that would not swap over from the 696? New coils for the dual spark? Will the 1100 motor work on a double sided swingarm?

Any ideas? Opinions?

I think motor, ecu, coils, exhaust, possibly airbox but i would check part numbers to be sure.

I also think it would be a straight working fit for the swingarm as well.

would be cool for the 1100 with a DSS

oh and your insurance stays the same since the VIN is a 696.


personally... for the money for an 1100 motor, it would be more fun to see how far the 696 can be bumped up in HP.
imagine large bore short stroke, port and polish, HC pistons lightweight internals everywhere.
maybe a dry clutch conversion

but that's just me... i like the smaller motor idea with as much HP as possible with as little weight as possible.

I think a modded 696 engine would be sweet, that was my original plan, and I was watching your posts on the subject with eagerness to see what you came up with.... But man, that would be a lot of work, research, and something that would take a lot longer and probably more money than an 1100 swap... Especially if you can find an 1100 engine that's coming off a wrecked bike.

Is it confirmed that the 696 ECU will not work on the 1100, even with a reflash?

Sounds very interesting!  I think it would be difficult to get a lot more power from the 696.  I've been told (but haven't verified) that the 696 cylinders do not have much room for a larger bore, though there's room for more stroke (essentially making it like the 796 motor).  I'm sure there's power to be had with really high compression and bigger cams - always is, but its not going to be the same sort of thrust as you'd get from the 1100 I'd think.  Retaining 696 insurance and taxes has a certain appeal too.

I don't know about the ECU, but its easy enough to swap that I don't see any harm in giving it a shot then if it doesn't work well swap out for an 1100 ECU.  I'm sure you'll need to add a lot more fuel, otherwise the 696 ECU might just spice up the 1100 with a higher rev limit and likely more advance (plugging ECU's from smaller CC bikes for a bit of extra go isn't unheard of - desert racers put XR400 ECUs on XR650Rs with frequency for extra rpm and advance - those are both carburated though so all the ECU is doing is controlling spark).

If you wanted to get crazy you could find some ~50mm TBs to bolt to the 1100 motor then custom-program a mega-squirt system to run it.  A blurb in this month's MCN suggested that the 1100 is rather limited by its 45mm TBs. 

Have fun, sounds like a great project whichever direction you go  [evil]

I've often thought about Megasquirt possibilities...

ECU is same externally, but slightly different part numbers- my guess is the maps are different.  Running a powercommander and with a reflash my guess would be you can run 696  injection on 1100 motor... 

*CONFIRMED- injectors are same PN which means mapping is all that is different, and remapped/PC 696 ecu would likely work fine...

Maps are different, thats a given.  But are you sure that M696 ECU has the exact same pinouts as M1100 ECU??  

I could see plenty of harm in fitting an incompatible ECU to your machine.  Although I am not saying that M696 ECU's hardware is different to M1100, maybe an M696 ECU can be reflashed as M1100, point is that we just dont know for sure..... What I am saying is that I wouldnt just go ahead and "give it a shot".... More homework needed first IMO.

Its been said before: Not much to be gained - other than noise - by running dualspark beyond 10K rpm.  

+1. I'm mostly with Raux on this one (although I do see the fun in swapping in an M1100 motor too  [evil]).

Are you sure?  That certainly would not be the case over at my part of the planet.  My insurance company asks questions like "has the engine been modified.. blah... blah.. blah".... And of course they only ask so that they can walk away from a payout if you "forgot" to mention it.  That said, I dont live in the USA, so YMMV.

All my insurers care about (state farm, VA) is the VIN.  They've never asked about engines etc, though coverage for accessories/mods is available as an ad-on.

So in theory you could squeeze a V8 Chev motor into your Grandma's Honda Civic and the insurance company would still pay out when she rolled it?   Nice  [thumbsup].

Well that's the far other end of the spectrum.

There would be no way for the average insurance adjuster to know the engine displacement from the outside.  Yeah it may be stamped on cases somewhere, but they aren't going to be looking for that.  Have it welded in and ground down if you are worried...

If you are really worried about it pay attention on the policy application - I'm pretty sure the one I filled out had no questions about mods/engines (for bikes or cages) and then check to make sure there isn't any policy language to exclude coverage for modded bikes (don't remember anything like this on my policy, but its been a good while since I looked at it). Insurance policies are surprisingly easy to read.

I will say that along with the VIN, Nationwide asks the person specifically "What CC is the motor?"  If you slip and give something other than what is supposed to be there, you might be paying a higher premium.   GEICO didn't ask any questions, just wanted the VIN.

JM

iirc, progressive asks if there have been any major mods done to the bike when you sign up online.

Go for it!
As mentioned before.
- Engine
- Dual spark ignition coils
- Headers
- Reflashed ECU or a 1100 ECU.
will be needed.
I would NOT recommend to use the stock M696 ECU with just Power Commander for the fuel.
The DS need revised sparkmap.
If you need help with the ECU send a PM.

I run a M600 -96 with a 1000DS engine and modified 15M ECU.
The insurance is cheap for a M600 and the MOT guy thought the bike was quick being a 600  :)

just hope your inspector isn't an honest, by the book, Ducati lover.

I think any Ducati lover would see the swap, wink, and then mark down the smaller cc engine.  Haha

Besides part#'s, is there difference between the 1100 and 696 heads?

Valve size is different... larger for 1100.  Some slight difference in internals I believe...


Know this for sure?  I know for almost certain the mid pipe is the same... and if you are running 696 ecu reflashed then the flapper nonsense isn't a concern either...

I know it for sure.  M696 and M1100 headers are different and cannot be interchanged.  The midpipes are not the same either (M1100 has the silly flappergate, M696 does not)... not the same... but unlike the headers the midpipes are interchangeable.  I had a stock M696 midpipe fitted to my M1100 for a while.  

Midpipe swap = yes.  Headers swap = no.

M1100 has provision for more spark plugs  ;)

True- meant that also.  

  But while we are talking about it, could one of the spark plug holes/ports be plugged with maybe a specially made plug and ran with a single spark plug and stock ignition map... I haven't read numbers, but I know from experience with a few cars running dual spark that it didn't offer any meaningful performance increase once modded beyond stock. I would expect the difference would be most noticeable with regards to emissions...

i can think of a few reasons to do this, the main one is insurance, but like some others its not worth it to mod and just upgrade bikes

You mean not to?

And at this point, with all the mods I've done and time/money I have spent, upgrading is not an option/something I want to do... Plus half the fun of owning my bike is modifying it, it's not fun to simply buy another

well a 696 is MUCH cheaper to insure than an 1100
and having an 1100 engine shoehorned would be fun
but its easier just getting the bike all done because it would be more expensive to buy the engine and electronics, and swap everything over

Easier to buy 1100 outright... but then the same mods would have to be done again- plus the money you loose selling 696 from what was paid.  Doing the engine swap would be cheaper overall, just not easier...

"In for a penny, in for a pound...."

i say since you guys seem pretty hands on with everything on your bikes that the non financial benefits of putting in the 1100 engine, e.g. the sense of pride in making it all work, would more than make up for the amount of work you guys put into it vs just getting a 1100.

first.. doworkson... sorry about busting your chops on the Ducati site

second, just do it. in fact. find an EVO motor :D

Honestly,

You are going to spend way more to install an 1100 and a SSS on a 696 than you would just buying an 1100 outright.

Find a used 1100S. Already has the Ohlins and SSS. Throw on some boomtubes and an ECU and you are pretty much back to where you are now.

Much easier.

Plus if you ever intend to resell tht 696 w/ an 1100 swap it may be difficult.

Well here is my reasoning of not wanting to sell my 696 and go to 1100. I threw around that idea awhile back and figured this was the better, and funner route.... Here is why.

1. Financial reasons. I couldn't sell my 696 for nearly what I put into it, which means money down the drain. Second, I am rebounding from a short sale which killed my credit and limits my purchasing of a new bike. Buying a new bike would mean doing it all over again, which means more money spent.

2. Modifications.... My 696 has a lot of it which might make the dealership wary of buying it back, and all the things done to my 696, I would want to do to my 1100. So, I would either have to buy my 1100, and switch all parts/mods over to it... Or I would have to purchase everything all over again and  put those parts on the 1100....

3. Sentimental value. I don't want to sell my 696, and do not plan on it for a long long time. Plus, I love modding and changing it up. Half the fun of having my bike is modding it. It's like asking a Camaro owner who has done engine work, why they did not just buy a corvette. Or asking an 1100 owner, why he just didn't buy a street fighter.

4. I can always off set costs of engine with selling 696 engine... OR save 696 engine, and make it a "project" engine. and put it back in later. There are many options. I think with some time/research/patience I can find a used 1100 engine for fairly cheap and install that.

I am not saying that this is a set in stone project, but just exploring the possibilities.

all sound arguments.

1. but you still going to have a hell of a cash flow to get the 1100 motor unless you get a deal on a salvage bike from an insurance company, hint hint.

2. the mods... IF you sold it, I would sell off first, go back to stock, then sell the bike.

3. I would never sell my 696 as I'm keeping it for my kid.

4. Keep the 696 motor and find a SBK frame and make a small case 2v sbk

I have been searching high and low for a wrecked 1100... A bunch of auto-auction sites, ebay, motorcycle salvage yards, etc... Just a matter of time before I can get one. There is one 1100 motor(slightly damaged) on ebay for $1700... WAYYYYYY TOO MUCH for what it is. Considering, hyper engines are going for under $1000...

Which brings up another point.

What other engines will work in the 696 frame? Considering you can get the ECU, wiring harness, etc....

There are many salvaged bikes for sale, for very cheap, that have minor damage.... 1098 engine, streetfighter engine? What are the possibilities??

And Raux, like you, I am not selling the 696. No matter how far it goes from being a 696, it will always be my 696

Without major work, the following engines do have the correct swingarm bearing in the casing.
2V
1000 Monster & SS & Sport Classic
1100 Monster
3V
ST3
4V
916 Monster S4 & ST4
996 Monster S4R & ST4S
998 Monster S4RS

What about frame mounting points....are those standard?

a 4v new monster would be pretty awesome... prob a lot more work, but def the kind of project that would make the idea of changing engines instead of bikes a lot more interesting.

i know someone did it already, and i think they did it with the old testastretta.  i remember seeing a thread on this board for it..

here it is:

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=11215.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=11215.0)

Yes!

I have a legitimate as any reason for stuffing a 1100 into the 696!  My wife loves her modified lower 696 and the taller 796/1100 is not an option.  So, I am all ears to what you guys find out and plan to do here.

Seems a cheap route would be to just put in the 1100 motor and bolt on the stuff from the 696 that fits, excepting the headers.  If the FI bolts up, then do it.   

I started modding in 1963 with a 1956 chevy 265ci.  Full race duntov cam, blew it up, put in a short block 327ci with corvette heads, but intake and exhaust from the 265 till I could get some more money.  Ran great, but did much better with the 4bb manifold for the 327 of course.

Would the stock dssa and sprockets line up with the 1100? 

why not just lower an 1100?
696 rear suspension clevis and pull the forks through.

Believe me I have thought of that, but those wheels/tires are much bigger OD also.  Her 696 is at about 28" seat height (OEM lower seat also) unladen and goes down another inch with the 130 lb rider, so about 27".  Doubt that the taller 1100 would go that low, and besides, I might just want to mod that one for me instead of her.  LOL

Her IS is 26.5", I was able to talk her into getting the 1" thick soles added to the touring boots.  Really works great now, the whole combination, perfect bike for a small short person!  Can only imagine what the 1100 lump would do to it.  She also gets about 57-58mpg so that might go out the window also.

PS. I meant outside diameter for the bigger wheels/tires.

the frames are the same, the tire is a 180 in the rear compared to the 160 in the rear but everything else is the same.
the only difference is the front forks are longer and the rear suspension top mount is longer. both of which can be swapped or modified.
i think the 1100 might have heavier springs, but that could be swapped out.
I really think you would have an easier time swapping out suspension pieces than a motor swap.
PLUS depending on the motor and the electronics you may get have issues with ABS and TC vs None or one and the needed parts on the 696 to match.

Wish it was that easy, but I have been lowering bikes for a while, so very familiar with the TIRE size vs Diameter deal.  The 180/70/17 is over 2" taller than the little 160/60/17.  26.2" ver 24.56" = 2.36" which equates to 1.18" taller at the axle.  Same thing at the front but less of a difference, so being already pulled up to the max, you cannot go any farther.

Much easier to stuff 1100 in the already fitted/handling 696 for my application.

Also, used 696, $5800, used 1100 over $9500 in most cases, no comparison.

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/tirecalc.php (http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/tirecalc.php)

uh

160/60 -17 rear vs 180/55 -17 rear is a 3mm taller tire on the 1100
120/60 -17 front vs 120/70 -17 front is a 12mm taller tire on the 1100

plus add more than 2k for an 1100 motor and ecu.

you could take an 1100 swap out the 120/70 front for a 120/60 front, lower the forks, lower the rear, use the low seat you have now... and you're right where you are now on height... well +3mm for the rear tire.
you'll have a better front suspension unless you've upgraded the 696.
and the bars are better being larger diameter in the center.
radial brake and clutch masters.

i mean i know it's your bike and all, but i think in the long run it could be done pretty easily. in fact have you checked out the female owner section here and asked them. a lot of them have lowered these bikes.

My bad, didn't realize that the 1100 uses a low profile 180, probably could lower it near but not as low as I have her 696.  She is happy tho, OEM forks are good with my mods, so I will be selling the 848 forks and mods.  Would have needed to revalve them and never got to that point, she went back to stock setup with the Tiger 1050 springs and mods.

Questions regarding this I am curious about:

1) Is ECU on 1100 the same pinout and if there are map/flash differences what are they and can they be flashed onto a 696 ecu.

2) Are there any additional engine sensors on the 1100 that affect ECU operation.

3) Are throttle bodies the same for 1100 (or really, will 696 TB mount up ok)?  I know that injectors are same part number...

4) Can a dual coil setup be made to work off of a single coil trigger?

5) Can an 1100 Hyper motor be run with 696 ecu/harness?

my assumptions

1) Is ECU on 1100 the same pinout and if there are map/flash differences what are they and can they be flashed onto a 696 ecu.
yes but needs a reflash

2) Are there any additional engine sensors on the 1100 that affect ECU operation.
no

3) Are throttle bodies the same for 1100 (or really, will 696 TB mount up ok)?  I know that injectors are same part number...
yes but the rubber intake plenums are different (good way to check is part number, but pretty certain they are both 45mm


4) Can a dual coil setup be made to work off of a single coil trigger?
should be the same connector

5) Can an 1100 Hyper motor be run with 696 ecu/harness?
probably not. hyper is not seimens I don't  think. maybe the evo

but most of these questions can be answered by comparing parts catalogs

I agree with Raux.   Go for the 1100!  I am a short chick as well, and that is what I would like to do.  Any chance you can elaborate (maybe send me a PM)on adding to the soles of your wife's boots?  How did you do this, and did she have a hard time adjusting to the thickness of the soles?

Did some research:

Here are some part number comparisons re: 696/1100/Hyper 1100 (all referenced for '09 model year):

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v92/2-Skinny/ducspecsimage.jpg)

Google Docs link for the file:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B5jIrbZCusH9ZTc0ZWVlNzEtZDNmYS00MDRiLWJmZjUtYmI0YTVkN2E2MWQ0&hl=en_US (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B5jIrbZCusH9ZTc0ZWVlNzEtZDNmYS00MDRiLWJmZjUtYmI0YTVkN2E2MWQ0&hl=en_US)

Some notes:

- Although the Hyper for this year uses the Marelli ECU and a slightly different intake setup, the heads have the same part number(s) as the M1100- which means that the intake/injection system will work on the Hyper engine. 

-All 3 bikes use a 45mm throttle body setup, and the 696/1100 use the same injectors.  the Hyper injector is a different part no. likely because of the different ECU.

-The Hyper uses different part numbers for the cylinders than the M1100- I am curious as to why this is- I don't see any visual differences.

-It would be helpful to compare all 3 intake manifolds to find out if there are any design/performance differences between the three.  As would the throttle body assemblies- if the difference in part numbers only corresponds to a subtle difference and all 3 are essentially the same.

-Verdict is still out on actual differences between 696 and 1100 ECUs..

-Also, gearing for 1100 and Hyper is the same so no differences there...



Anybody note anything I missed?  Biggest question I am trying to figure out with this:

-Can 696 ECU/Electronics/intake assembly be used to run an 1100 motor and if so, what mods would be needed to do this (as just slipping in the engine to everything there already would make the mod even easier.

*** -If engine swap is NOT done, would a hybrid combination of parts from these three engines (and perhaps the 1100 EVO) produce any interesting performance increases that could be incorporated into a 696 engine build.

Thoughts, thoughts... and some can again only be answered by getting the parts side by side and taking measurements, I wonder if there is someone at Ducati that would know and would help...

 [coffee]

Subscribed

This is her 4th bike, and I have tried to get her to go to the bigger soles before, she finally did it this time and it was fantastic result.  I had to adjust the gear shift lever all the way as high as it would go with the adjustable linkage.

P.S. She was only joking about the 1100 engine, as she absolutely loves this 696, handling, power, light weight, the whole package.

She took her tourmaster waterproof boots to a local cobbler and he cut some soles from a sheet of rubber and glued them on, great work, but I imagine normal for a good cobbler.
(http://myweb.cebridge.net/dhanson/tourmaster.jpg)

Pretty big difference in the stroke between the 696 vs 1100, so I would guess the ECU would need a new map at least, probably too lean and narrow for the 1100.  But, if I had one I would try it just because, then check the plugs or may could tell by listening. 

Gonna need an oil cooler also.

Pm sent on boots detail.

Thank you both for the info and the PM!  It's very helpful to talk to someone who has actually done this!

+ 11ty billion.

This I would not do.

This is a crucial issue to resolve.  If 696 and 1100 ECU hardware is the same, then I see no reason why an M696 ECU could not be reflashed as M1100.  Gotta get past that initial "if" to begin with though.... I'd really like to know the answer to that one.........

M1100 idler stepping motor?

Okay-

S2R 1000 motor as possible cheaper engine option.

Swingarm WILL work from 696...

Accepted that 696 injection / intake setup can be MADE to work...

ideas on exhaust- diameter, same flange, etc...?

your ECU, wiring harness, gauges... etc... wow, that sounds worse

In what way?

cost, complexity

Not really- all that is needed is the engine- everything else should work...

Exhaust may work- or 1100 exhaust could work- but regardless, the 1100 exhaust has all that flapper garbage so that would have had to be worked around anyways...

what map would you run on the ECU? is the 1000 a DS? new exhaust needed.
would the wiring harness have all the same motor connections?

I believe so- no additional sensors.  More research would be needed to confirm.  I don't believe that S2R is DS... 

Working on finding out differences in base maps between 696 and 1100 ecu...

DS it is.

and MM ECU

I knew it had a Marelli ECU- but intention is running:

-696 Throttle Bodies
-696 Intake Manifolds
-Remapped 696 ECU with Power Commander and stock 696 harness...

i don't know... seems that trying to fit small block parts on a big block motor. like i said before maybe the throttle bodies would work, but mating the up with the intake plenums might not. plus the motor sensors from a MM motor compared to one from a Siemens?
how are you going to remap the ECU?  you would have to build a custom map to match the original MM map and get it to work on teh Siemens.

You are probably right- I think sticking with the 1100 engine is going to be the easiest...

An 1100 engine seems to be a little hard to come by these days, and some places are charging an outrageous amount for a used one... So We have now been throwing around the idea of an engine build.

So far the ideas are:

-M800/M796 Connecting Rods to basically make 696 engine a 796

-Lighten Flywheel

-Lighten crank

-Port/Polish heads

-Dual spark conversion

More info coming soon...

Put a diavel engine.... in a 696, and prepare to jump to warp speed.

need pistons too. different deck height

What is the amt of difference in deck height?

stroke is 8.8mm longer so a 4.4 mm diff

Hmmmm.... seems that won't be as easy as anticipated either...


Basic engine mods it is I guess...

Raux- you did some research on boring for 696 cylinders- I know they have to be re-coated in some anti-friction nonsense, but did you determine any meaningful amount that they can be increased reliably?  Maybe pistons from another bike would work in there- maybe 90-91mm high-comp or something...

Also, as an update to my research regarding re-flashing the 696 ecu with 1100 flash:

Anthony at Mota-Lab advised that, while the ECUs look the same from the outside, "the internals are different"... and thusly he could not flash the 696 with 1100 data because they are just different.

Although I suppose he would have the experience/knowledge, I don't know that I am 100% convinced.

Apparently there are hundreds of tables of data variables flashed to each ECU defining fuel and idle control for various conditions- he (Anthony) said that each of these would have to be reprogrammed individually.

Which, to me, means that it COULD be done if a flash existed.  All that would need to do would be to flash the 1100 data tables that are ALSO present on the 696 ECU onto that ECU...

Is it REXXER that develops the maps?  Perhaps if they were to be contacted they have a way to generate a map to this spec...

Also Raux- did you determine M800 crankshaft will NOT work?  Stroke is right, but the swingarm itself (per the fiche) looks quite different than those from 696/796...

different.  shock mount butcould be fabbed.
but notsure of exhaust routing

for the piston 796 could work.

I
didn't. look too much into bore due to costs of work herebut seemed 90/91 might be possible. based on the practice head bought

Shit- I meant M800 crankshaft....

someone. bought mine and did as far as i know

This might be helpful:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DUCATI-MONSTER-1100-1100S-GAUGE-CLUSTER-CAP-KEY-ECU-ECM-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem45f9fafc41QQitemZ300546718785QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_3834wt_1167 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DUCATI-MONSTER-1100-1100S-GAUGE-CLUSTER-CAP-KEY-ECU-ECM-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem45f9fafc41QQitemZ300546718785QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_3834wt_1167)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ducati-Monster-1100S-Engine-motor-2010-10-107997-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4cf8d6e654QQitemZ330592347732QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ducati-Monster-1100S-Engine-motor-2010-10-107997-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4cf8d6e654QQitemZ330592347732QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)

Yeah saw that motor....

Seems a lot of $$$ for a damagesd engine. Considering that multistrada 1100 engines are going for less.... One company quoted me 2100-2600 for an engine depending on condition. Waiting to hear back from another shop who is supposed to be getting a few 1100 engines in august.

Still up for debate on what to do. I think a hi compression, lightened engine for 696 would be sweet..... Maybe not as much power, but a unique and cool project with pretty significant gains...

Still have months to decide and work at the details

Anyone thinking about the Monster 1100 engine from a Siemens ECU bike should know that the timing gear have to be changed if you plan to use the engine in a bike with a Marelli ECU 15M/16M/59M/5AM.
The timing gear from a Hypermotard -08 & -09 should work.

Those have been ruled out because the Hyper/Multi frames are different (swingarm mounts to frame) and the engine cases are different- they do not have mounting points for the swingarm and are deeper/wider something...