Ducati Monster Forum

The reason I ask is, during the Telecast* of the MotoGP this weekend, former Racer turned Commentator Steve Parrish
made the comment that a number of people in the Racing (European) press are starting to view Casey Stoner in a Different light
as he was able to Tame and control the Ducati where it appears Rossi can not, that maybe he is now being seen as
a bit of a hero in the Red Camp (Ducati)

So, has your opinion of him changed? maybe your thoughts about him complaining constantly (Casey Moaner) have
also changed? with the Desmo constantly trying to thrown him and itself down the road, do you feel that he was
justified to have a bit of a whinge?

Your thoughts?

*The Australian OneHD Telecast

I doubt overall opinions have changed much, at least not on the DMF where he's viewed as marginally more likeable than pedrosa  ;)

I've always had great respect for him, and now have even more, taking into account rossi's failure thus far on the desmo. I always felt people were unfairly critical of stoner, especially during his health problems last season. Then again, I like riders more for their skill than their personality. Some guys are better at playing the press game; it doesn't make them better people.

Now that he's not on the Ducati, I think he's a whingeing little robot ;D

Just kidding...Casey has always ridden like a god, and I respect him for that.  [bow_down] [bow_down] [bow_down]

Never did like his personality and I still don't particularly enjoy him, although lately he seems to be opening up slightly which helps.  As far as watching him ride a bike, he's stupid fast, fun to watch, and I'll jerk it to his wife, but I don't cheer for him.

Stoner has always been batshit fast and I've always said that. He did on the Ducati what no one else has been able to do.

I admire riders for their skill and like them for their personality.

I still don't like Stoner.

[thumbsup]

My attitude has not changed one bit, I still think he's one of the best Australian riders the world has seen, an absolute champion.
Disclaimer, I may be a little one eyed

+1

I see him as an even better rider now hes the only one to win on the carbon 800. He has the best stats in the 800 era. Rossi has fallen in my estimation with his bullshit comments about Stoner riding the Ducati. Rossi said in an interview that he could ride it on the limit like Stoner did but that it was not the best way. If he could I reckon he would have until they fixed it, but he hasn't. He's pretty quiet now, it's the bike now! So I guess Stoner has gone up in my regard in a relative sense as well.

I think hes whinging less. Starting to mature I guess. He'll be a dad soon, then he'll know about lack of sleep. In the last race he admitted it was his physical condition, Jorge's riding and not the bike that put him third place. Stoner and Jorge seem to have a great deal of mutual respect, they talk on the podium but ignore Pedrosa.

that.

however i do think he's grown up a bit, which has made him closer to likable.  closer.

and things like that pass on pedro at laguna have made me respect his racing ability more.  he's always been stupid fast; now he's learning to race, too.

+2 ... +3... I've lost count. [roll] I too admire his skill on the track, but I could say the same for Pedrobot. Doesn't mean I have to like them or their personality. But I've been told they don't like me either and I have no skill to admire. [cheeky] I don't care if you are a banker, football player, actor, or whatever you do you can have great skills at your craft but if you are an arogant dick, have no personality, rude to fans/press, etc. it makes it hard to like you. Not saying Stoner or the 'bot are dicks, just saying I like most of the riders in the paddock more than them. Even though they may not have the on track skills.

Not to drag NASCAR into this but people either loved or hated Dale Earnhardt because of his personality. His skills on the track could never win over the half of the fans that hated him. I think something similar applies to Stoner and the 'bot. Whereas Rossi's personality, his connection with the fans and his skills on the track are an unbeatable combination. [bacon] [bow_down]

I had this discussion with the parts guy at my local Duc dealer this weekend.

He brought up a good point.
Stoner needed to push hard. He NEEDED to ride the wheels off the Duc. Because of what he was able to do on the Duc gave him the opportunity to go back to Honda.

Rossi is 34. He has 9 world championships under his belt. His career in MotoGP is winding down. He doesn't need to ride the wheels off the Duc. He has nothing more to prove and breaking himself trying to prove something at this point (with essentially a new bike right around the corner next year) would be pointless.
He has still managed to stay in a decent spot in the points overall even with all of the misfortune.
Rossi isn't the problem with the Ducati. Ducati is the problem with Ducati. Rossi/Burgess proved with the Yamaha that they can polish a turd and make it win. But Yamaha was also substantially more willing to open up to their suggestions than Ducati has been for anyone. Stoner included (How long did it take Ducati to finally listen to Casey's complaints about the front end).

That being said, HUGE respect for what Casey accomplished on the untamed Bronco that is the Desmo.
I admire his ability to ride as well as he can.
I can't stand his whiney attitude.
I don't like him.
Never have, never will and I am a huge fan of Australians in world competition. Got the autographed t-shirt from Doohan, the pictures/posters/shirts of Bayliss and Corser too.
But I don't feel like Casey is cut from the same cloth as those guys.

Well said. I agree. And yes, Stoner and the 'bot still don't like me either. ;D

To add further to the Discussion, To play Devils Advocate...

Could Stoners Whinging be from the Constant culture problem at Ducati, it's not the Bike, It's you!
We saw how many times other riders approached the Desmosidici trying to tame it, and when they failed, they were blamed, wasn't it Marco Melandri who was famously sent to a Shrink because he was being blamed for the bikes problems?

I could not blame Stoner if out of Sheer Frustration he was seen to be whinging to anyone who would listen when every time you try to tell your Bosses that something is wrong, they deny everything and tell you no no, you are wrong!  [bang] but I wonder if that is what it was a lot of the time, not making excuses for the guy, but that thought did cross my mind on a number of occasions....

It has been amazing the transformation that Stoner has undergone this year, not having to battle a bike that wants to hurl you down the road everytime you approach a corner, mind you, I think the PR people at Honda have also helped Casey understand that the Press can be your best friend if handled correctly.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a one eyed Casey supporter, I simply prefer Casey simply because he is an Aussie, but I also like seeing a good intense battle on the track and the best rider on the day win it, Even PedroBot!

he complained at LCR, too.  he even accused Ohlins of sabotage.

and he was crazy fast on the honda then, as well.  he started from pole in his first premier class event.  it's not a super big transformation considering he then eventually graduated to factory honda machinery.  and a factory honda at the time they finally got the 800 sorted.

what amazes me about him and his time at ducati was his ability to keep it pinned no matter what the bike was doing.

I think Stoner was a 'victim' of the new Ducati ownership. They do not want anyone to bad mouth the GP bike as it's about to be the so-called flag bike for the entire lineup as the new SBK.

They are betting the farm on this concept and it's better to blame the rider than the tech.

What they did to Stoner last year when he was sick sucked. and again sucked.

Why any rider would sign with them after they tossed Stoner to the Sharks I don't understand.

he also handled that very, very poorly.

I don't think ducati letting him go had anything to do with him "bad mouthing" the bike. Personally I think Ducati (and Marlboro) just tired of Stoner's attitude towards PR tasks...and maybe more importantly they didn't recognize his unique ability to ride their bike fast. I think they figured anyone could do it, especially Vale or JLo.

My guess is they miss him now...or at the very least recognize how good he was/is.

After the JLo contract issue, I doubt there is anything they could have done to keep him. They had maybe the best rider in the paddock on their team, and they treated him as expendable. Now he's kicking their ass.  [thumbsup]

No shit

I agree about Stoner's attitude towards PR and honestly Rossi is 10x more press and PR even when he's riding around midpack.  They get just as much press one way or another. ( really more press because everyone wants to know what is wrong )  Lorenzo would have failed on the Ducati the same as Rossi in my opinion.  They are both very similar styles that stress a good front end bike.  Stoner's style doesn't need the same stability to succeed because he uses the rear so much more.  He's doing the same on the Honda as he did with Ducati for the most part, except the front end is solid so he actually finishes races he doesn't win lol.  He's also matured a bit as a racer.  I don't think anyone has ever not recognized how good Stoner is.  He's just not the ideal marketing tool and that ultimately pays for those rides every year.

^^^ very good point on riding styles

I hadn't thought of it in that way before

But I notice that Steve Parrish has said that while Stoner was at Ducati he was a very prickly person to try and Interview, his emotions were bubbling away just under the surface, and it wouldn't take much for him to get stirred up, he has noticed this year he is much more relaxed, he is a lot happier/smiling and happier to talk to the press.

I wonder how much of that is Honda and there PR people coaching him or the fact he now is on a bike that goes where it's told to and doesn't try to throw you off and kill you if you take it anywhere near a corner. Or a combination of both?


Interesting point Triple J, but again to play Devils Advocate, I wonder if it was also a case of Stoner getting tired of playing nice in front of the Camera's to make the Corporate Power Brokers happy, but the second those Camera's were off, they were telling him and his Team Mate that all the bikes problems were in there Head, and to Shut up and perform. Eventually you are going to get sick and tired of Slapped in the face with one hand, and patted on the back with the other. just to throw in a different take on things  :)

same. never thought of it that way... that makes a whole lotta sense.

made me think of this video, wish there was a 1000fps version of him taking it the duc:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4snkUUolJ0

so what ducati really needs is another rider who just backs it into every corner?

1199 flat tracker?  haha

also, i'm guessing it's also just him getting older that's making him mellow out.  i mean, he's only 25 now and started moto gp around 20-21.  i was even worse of an idiot than i am now when i was that age haha.  he's married and has a kid now, so things are prob settling in nicely for him, he doesnt have to prove himself like when he first started.  and he also has a machine that works really well, and he's winning finally.

the question is... if he manages to break all of rossi's records... would you ever consider him the g.o.a.t.?  i dont think i could.  it's like how lennox lewis was a great fighter and has a great record... but he was a pretty boring heavyweight champ.

He was married while at Ducati...and he has a kid on the way

Stoner is fast because he has to be. He married way up the food chain and knows he's only a couple of steps away from the podium to shopping at Walmart with Hopper.

he was married before the 2007 season even started, so technically he was married before he was at ducati.

and ducati didn't let him go -- he left.  he was the first move of the 2011 silly season, very early on.  he was open about the fact that he was pissed about the jlo offer the year before.  and, obviously, Suppo made it very easy for him to move.  i think they planned that about a year before it was announced.

And therein, IMHO, lies one of the core problems. Ducati's key behind the scenes talent started abandoning ship in 2008/2009.

Suppo + <insert team here> + Stoner = #Winning
(http://ecdn2.hark.com/images/000/204/422/204422/original.jpg)

Give this some time.  After last year, you would have though Lorenzo is the next one to assault Rossi's records.  He's smooth as silk, a great racer at his age, and fast as heck.  However you need the bike too, and the Yam is just a hair off the pace.  Its tough to put together extended dominance.  It takes lots of skill, plenty of luck, and revolving circumstances to keep going your way.  Rossi managed to race for a decade and a half before a major injury struck him.  That's hard to do, let alone getting a good bike underneath you for the majority of that timespan.

also the timeframe (latter part of 2008 + 2009 silly season) where even motogp hopefuls were turning down the chance to ride a ducati.  that's where the get-the-dirt-tracker idea came from.

(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs304.ash2/58412_430270467119_50081707119_5581700_3870420_n.jpg)

Is this refering to Hayden? If so, Ducati wanted him in 2007 instead of Stoner from what i remember. They wanted 1) Rossi, 2) Hayden, then settled for 3) Stoner.

yes it is and yes they did.  he said no.  then he said yes in 2009.

My attitude toward Casey hasn't really changed, I don't think.  But I never really disliked him.  There was a period a while ago where I thought he sounded whiny, but <meh>.  Lately, I've been rooting for him more and more, especially over Lorenzo (who tears up live chickens for sport).  I'm sick of those f'n Hondas though. 

I've always found Stoner's in-depth interviews fascinating.  He's really analytical about the bike and his riding.  It's interesting.  I've never understood his deal with refusing to deal the PR side of things.

Agreed. His interview a while back about he he manages to be fast on any bike (I think that was the topic), where he discussed how he slides it sometimes and rides it controlled others and how some other riders have a problem doing both, was very interesting.  [thumbsup]

Schwantz thinks stoner should STFU and ride.  ;)

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Sep/110908-34column.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Sep/110908-34column.htm)

re Indy:

"It's paved. It's the same for everybody. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean I need to whine about it. There were lots of tracks I used to go to that I didn't get results at, or I didn't really go well at. I always complained "This place is too bumpy," or "It's too rough," or "It's too slick." Don't worry about whining so much, just worry about riding it. He's doing a good job of that, so he must just need something to whine about. It doesn't seem like he can complain about his bike much."

I don't recall seeing the video where he's talking about how crappy the track was, so....

Was he responding to a direct question from the media about what he thought of the track?
If so, then IMO, he's not whining, he's answering the question.

If he brought it up out of the blue, well, that could be considered whining.

he complained about it on multiple occasions throughout the weekend, usually in response to more general how's it going type questions.

Stoner often just tells people what is on his mind without an sort of "I'm talking on the record" filter.  And since he's a bit of a perfectionist, more often than not, he finds something about a track or the bike that doesn't work or that he doesn't like.  So it sounds like he's whining.  Often because he is.  

Biaggi is kinda of the same way.  But with less talent and more douchery.  I mean, I don't remember Stoner throwing his team under the bus.  On second though, they're not really alike.  Biaggi blames others (well, he used to).  Stoner's just never happy with what he's got.

I always was a Stoner fan. First because he's an Aussie, second because he's stupid fast. He's never really struck me as a whiner but then again, Australians are actually known for being whingers so maybe it's normal to me. Whining aside, I've always liked his personality because he's blunt and to the point, honest to a fault you might say. I think culturally that's perceived differently depending on the observer (as cultural aspects usually are, like Danny being so stoic for example). I have more respect for Stoner this year as, in spite of his critics, he's shown that he's able to be consistently fast, race hard when he needs to, go for points when he has to and work through issues.

I'm probably a little one eyed but I feel like Occam's razor would suggest that Stoner was right about the Ducati all along. He was right about the Michelin tires and he was right about Ohlins sabotaging him, no strike that, he probably saw it as sabotage, Ohlins probably saw it like putting resources where they could get value from it.

My respect for Rossi has diminished slightly, mostly because he hasn't sacked the make the beast with two backs up and said that Stoner was right but I'm not surprised and it's only a slight dip in respect, like .1 out of 100. He's the GOAT IMO.

I'm not sure I'll ever understand why people who are into racing expect their racers to be PR people or sales people. Yeah, Rossi's personality is great, it's fun when he's on it but I respect him way more for his riding ability than I like him for his personality. Simoncelli seems to get more respect even though his personality (and hair!) outweigh his actual results by a really, really long way. Dovizioso suffers the inverse. Until Simoncelli starts getting regular podiums, he's useless in my book.

Have a look at Casey's and Marco's GP histories, Marco's personality gets him a pass on his crashiness (popularity wise) but his results have been just as bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casey_Stoner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casey_Stoner) (cliff notes: 2006 - LCR - 6 x DNF | 2007 - Ducati - 0 x DNF - World Champion)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Simoncelli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Simoncelli) (cliff notes: 2010 - Gresini - 2 x DNF | 2011 - Gresini HRC - 4 x DNF - ...)

I might even argue that Stoner's move from a satellite Honda to a factory Ducati (and Ducati's power advantage) is somewhat mirrored in Simoncelli's move from satellite to factory bike in his first and second years.

To me, Matt Mladin & Casey Stoner are pretty similar personality wise and that personality seems to rub some people the wrong way. I like it.

It's all good. Stoner is stupid fast. And yes, to some, he whines about stuff too much. So does my 14 year old. [laugh] Just wish my kiddo could ride a bike like that. He could whine all he wanted!! [popcorn]

I agreed with most of what you said, up to this point.

Mat was just unabashedly an asshole on the track and an expert mind gamer.  If he could beat you before you even got to the grid, he was gonna do just that.  and he NEVER complained about the equipment.

 [thumbsup]

A fair point I guess, I'll wait until Stoner gets to Mladin's age and experience and see what he's like then. The net affect is the same despite those differences though, unarguably talented riders who don't get a whole lot of love from people due to their personality. Funny you should describe Mladin that way, sounds a lot like Rossi. ;)

I'd add that, IMO, Mat was more about where he could make the most money as opposed to being the very best. In motorcycling terms AMA racing is a pretty small pond.

Just my opinion Dan. :-*

If that is true, I wonder how Mladin felt when Spies went on to win the WSBK Championship as a Rookie...

As for Stoner, I think he gets a really bad wrap. We all like to have a villain in our soap operas I guess, why pick Stoner when Barbera is there?  [laugh]

Talent can exist in small ponds.

Those with it climb to the top and have some success...time will tell whether or not Ben will succeed in GP.

Those that can't succeed at the world level concentrate on making the most money they can in the kiddie pool.

Don't recall ever reading anything about his reaction to that.

I do remember reading about him stating he'd miss Spies, as he considered him his only real competition. Or something to that effect. It's been a couple years.

I think Spies already proved that he can succeed on the world stage. We might not consider it the pinacle but what he did in WSBK has never been done. That's no small achievement. That's exactly why I'm curious about what Mladin thinks about it. He and Spies were arguably very evenly matched, I wonder if Mladin found himself thinking about a missed opportunity. We all know that Spies learned a lot from Mladin and I don't doubt that Spies pushed Mladin to train and ride harder than he would have otherwise. I would have loved to have seen Mladin go to WSBK, who knows if he'd have done anything but it's interesting to think about.

Mladin would have done something in WSBK for sure. Championship(s)? Who knows? He came to race in the States for his own reasons. ($$$$) And was successful and then some. He could have gone to WSBK if he had wanted to. No one prevented him. He made his decision and stuck to it. Rather successfully I might add. I don't hold not going to WSBK against him. No way.

... back to Stoner talk. ;D

re mat...he also did go to GP.  too early, and on the wrong bike.  then he nearly lost his foot in an ultralite accident.  racing in the US gave him good competition (nicky beat him too), quality of life for his growing family, lots of money, and the ability to go home between races.  you can't blame him.

when he retired the doctors nearly cut his foot entirely off, rotated it 90 degrees or some awful number, and then reattached it.  he was racing and training on a severely make the beast with two backsed up appendage for years because he wouldn't take the time off required to fix it.

re ben, he predicted that he would be wsbk champion with 4 rounds to go.  mat was happy for him.  he knew the level of racing going on between the two of them & that it would equate to what happened in 2009.  i don't care what series or track it was, the racing going on between the two of them, especially in 2007, was world level.

anyway, stoner.. he's not a villain to me at all.  i don't hate him by a long shot.  i actually like a lot of his no-bs'ness.  but he does have a talent for being too much of a whiny little shit. ;]

...to be fair, i bet he wouldn't handle laguna 2008 now they way he did then.

vindicated?

remember, he pretty much told everybody the kid was gonna do it.

would you take a $2MM/yr (at least) paycut at 30yo just to say you're world champion? 7-fig salary to (low) 6-fig salary doing the exact same job (with 2-4x the number of races and higher risk).

Is it about the racing...

or the money?

Or being a PR guy? :P

I'd say that Mladin had some great racing while Ben and Nicky were there.

it's about both, really...

at the point the door was open for a second chance on the world stage, if i was also married with a child or two, i likely would've made the same decision he did.

let me play devil's advocate on this and speak hypothetically for a moment...what if he had made the jump and expanded his brand image ( because quite frankly it is all about marketing too-and I think he is a partner in a branded parts and accessories supply chain in Australia or something still moto oriented as a suppliment or legacy left behind to his racing name)...he could thereby have made much more money in the endorsements and sponsorship contracts...but sometimes you never know what could have been if you didn't take that chance...he is 39 now, which means he was 37 when he retired...and by the results of old guys on the world stage currently ( Checa, Biaggi, Corser, Haga, etc. ) in still being competitive...it isn't about age...so, he could still be building on that empire...

I'd disagree about that.

He's just in it for the money IMO.

To each his own.

If he was just in it for the money, why did he retire?

Has your Attitude towards Stoner Changed?

His pile of money got big enough?

Seeing as *any* of these guys can see their career end at a moment's notice, I can understand them maximizing income as best they can.

+1

Maybe he makes enough running his race team?

He's old?

this is true of any professional athlete of any discipline though...

Anyone feeling any different about Stoner now?

nope.  ;D

Dean is calling him "King of the 800's"

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Oct/111018stoner800.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Oct/111018stoner800.htm)

I wasn't trying to say "I told you so" or anything, just genuinely curious.

I think i said it before but he s wicked fast balls to the walls rider and ducati was stupid to let him go

Being fast isn't the only obligation of the job.

well...I just watched the race last night, and the interview beforehand with Mick Doohan by Gavin Emmett was interesting as he flat out pretty much said that Casey was riding past the limits very much on the "bin it" edge without any regard for to make results on the Duc, and as a result he ended up crashing a fair bit...but I think as Casey ages, that is going to drastically change if and when he has a major off that gets him hurt, much like Val changed a bit mentally after his major leg breaking off.....time and machinery shall tell the tale a bit I think as we progress from here...

it's not the military.. they didn't let him go.  he left.

They shat in his face, and Honda was waiting..

Some people are into that...

So his handling of offtrack PR work and complete botch of his illness issues gave Ducati no right to be angry with their employee?

Sure it did.

Stoner also had every right to be pissed about Ducati offering JLo twice what he made, despite the fact that he won a GP title for Ducati and no one else could even ride the damn thing.

There is that...

The guy is batshit fast on whatever he rides...

no one can change that...

but why does he come off like a whiney little pregnant dog?

sounds like lorenzo's manager was better than stoner's (colin stoner, his father).

casey's original "bargain" ducati contract should have had a healthy performance bonus with a guaranteed pay increase for the following season should he have won the championship. especially since ducati had so much faith in him that he was their third or fourth choice.

Regardless of the contract he had with them, I can understand why Stoner was upset by the move.

I think if my employee who had won a chamionship was sick I would have supported him better not turned on him like Marlboro did, even if they were not doing the PR thing, I would want him healthy and happy for next year.

fwiw, it'd been two years since he won his championship.

the big issue was that he took two months off and kept ducati/marlboro completely out of the loop. ducati was put in the position of trying to make sure they had two riders for the following year.

it wouldn't surprise me if "pressure" was coming from marlboro. do you think ducati had all that lorenzo money just laying around?

It might have been 2 years since his title but still no one had come anywhere near his results on the Duc. I think there's a lot more to this than anyone outside the parties in question really knows. I can think of several things, like the issue that Stoner has pointed out that Ducati wasn't interested in changing the bike until Rossi came along.

I was curious to know if Stoner's reaction to Lorenzo and winning the world championship had made any difference to anyone, I guess not.

Nup.

Before this win he was a hell of a good rider who annoyed me quite a bit, for some reason I can't quite pin down.

After this win he's a hell of a good rider who annoys me quite a bit, for some reason I can't quite pin down.

true. but if your wonder boy has told you that he doesn't trust your doctor's diagnosis, told you that he's taking two months off work, and gone radio silent, you kinda have to start looking at a contingency plan.

that really is a fair point.

of course you want to support your rider, all for one, one for all, yadda yadda.  but when he starts acting really goofy and then basically won't talk to you, your first priority goes back to making you sure you have a team next year.


anyway, whatever.  i feel like he's matured and that he's a lot less douchey.  he just has one of those personalities... 

i also feel like his racecraft has matured a lot as well.  that move on pedro at laguna took gigantic balls.  as for the rest, he's always been stupid fast.  no one argues that.  you don't get pole in your first premier class event by accident.

True but if you've been telling the team for a while that they need to be making changes to the design and they just keep ignoring you even though you're past the limits to get them wins and risking your livelihood to do so, maybe you're not thinking that they really give much of a make the beast with two backs about you? And on top of that, they want you to go out and rave about how great the bike is?

There's always three sides to every story, I don't think the general public has heard even half of any of the sides in this particular case.

Stoner's personality is divisive, clearly, I am one of the people who like his personality, I think we get more honesty from Stoner than we do from Rossi (for example) and I like that. I can certainly see why people don't like it or feel that it comes across as whiney. I also think that he's changed a fair bit and exhibits different behavior now that he's with Honda but maybe that's just me seeing what I want to see. I like him anyway so it doesn't really matter anyway.

If it's any consolation...

I like him more than some other Aussie riders. ;D

 [laugh] [laugh]

I'll second that!

Am I the only guy that thought Wayne Gardner was/is a complete Asshat?!

Wayne's OK in my book ;D

A Very Interesting Article about recent Comments from Carlo Pernat (The Man who 1st Signed up Rossi)

"Casey is owed an Apology"

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/news/article.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10759949 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/news/article.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10759949)

And this from Michael Scott from his interview with Agostini, who said Stoner is to Rossi what Hailwood was to himself.
 Thats a hell of a compliment, to both of them.

Hey, you haven't even met me!

Oh, you mean Mladin...  [laugh]

No, you are not.



And Stoner is the Gun! I think will follow the likes of Mick Doohan, that is he will stick with Honda and win many more championships.




                                      Mmick

Amen, Mmick

he'll stay with Honda as long as Suppo is there and he gets preferential treatment...as far as how many more championships come from their partnership...it seems a bit too early to throw those kinds of eggs around into baskets with all new formula of machinery coming into play...it is a virtually new horizon coming up here...

I wouldn't say he got preferential treatment, there were four factory Honda's out there. What preferential treatment did he get exactly?

When the Honda bosses gathered for their pre-season goat sacrifice, it was Casey's name they uttered unto the dark lord of two-wheeled victory.

who's data has been foremost in HRC's head thus far in development of the RC213V?...certainly not  Puig's golden boy who is also the same boy that has been on the cusp of nothing despite him being the mule they origionally designed the RC212V around with little return/results for what they produced....

i'm pretty sure the 2x world champion on the team always gets preferential treatment.  

and the problem with honda performance 2007-2010.5 wasn't dani.

Pedro's lack of results are generally down to his inability to stay healthy.  When fully fit, he's as solid a bet for a win as anyone.  I think Stoner would still have taken this years championship, but if Simoncelli doesn't torpedo Pedro this year, he would have given him a hell of a run.  Pedro was in great form running up to that incident.

Casey has already said on a number of occasions that he likes the 1000 and is looking forward to racing them, Wayne Gardner was recently interviewed on ONE HD Program RPM and said a few things which I thought was interesting, he got to ride Stoner's Ducati and he was Amazed at the things Casey was doing with it, he said it was a very poor Handling bike. and that Casey should be scary fast on the 1000's as the extra power and Torque will suit his riding style. Wayne said Casey was able to ride around the Ducati's front end problems by sliding the rear of the Ducati around (Steering the bike with the Throttle)

So I can only Imagine how he will go on a bike that doesn't want to throw him down the road everytime it goes near a corner and has even more power and torque.
It'll be an interesting 2012!  [thumbsup]

Do you have any more straws to clutch at? Stoner showed up to a team with a bike that'd been built for and developed by someone still on the same team. He'd never ridden it before and his crew had never touched the bike but Stoner won the first race. Credit where credit's due mate, you're really sounding unreasonable here.

Pedrosa is very fast and had got the bike going well by the end of 2010 but wasn't dominating either. Most of them say that they hadn't done much to the bike from the end of 2010 to the start of 2011 (i.e. it was already good) and Pedrosa was a threat for sure until his injuries but that pretty much describes Pedrosa, always a threat, never a champion (in GP at least).

Stoner and his crew were able to take a new (to them) bike and win a championship with 10 race wins and 12 pole positions, that doesn't happen because someone in the team is on your side. Stoner is just bloody good, end of story. Like him or not he's one of the fastest guys in the world and inventing excuses has really become very transparent.

As much as I wasn't a Simoncelli fan, it's a real shame that we won't get to see him on the RC213V, I think he'd have been Stoner's main threat next year. I wouldn't have been surprised if Simoncelli won it all next year or at least came close.

RIP #58

no arguing stoner's speed.  let's not forget he spent a year on the V5.. yeah yeah, he crashed a lot, but he was also blazing fast then, too.  my point is that the general honda ethos was not brand new to him last year at this time.

and they may have the last in a batch of small incremental changes but no way was the 2010.0 and the 2010.5 RC212v the same bike.  they found some serious motor in the middle of the year.

wow EvilSteve....my main thing is that Stoner is now firmly in the primary seat for the RC213V in the realm of a new chapter....now is the point at which we shall see a lot of things potentially happen in 1 way or another...I am not disputing that he firmly won the championship or that he is a good rider....but he isn't GOAT material IMHO either....he has the weilding end of the pointy stick and is the master of his destiny from here....but to what point shall he remain in that control has as much to do with factors outside his control too...and giving credit is also due to Suppo for bringing him in to Ducati and then into Repsol Honda....and if Casey keeps producing results...then Suppo will fight HRC to make sure he gets what he needs...the minute he flounders...it will be a different story as HRC have shown in the past...they choose their favorites....

Preferential treatment from Honda or not (who cares really)...if Stoner stays healthy and Honda doesn't shit the bed with the new bike, I see him winning a couple more championships easy. I just hope someone can challenge him a little more so it isn't decided until the last race of the season.

These two statements are nearly contradictory. I get your point, Honda as a company wasn't completely new to Stoner but I don't think that has any bearing on my point which was that it was a totally different bike.

Most of what you're saying is true for any rider in the field excepting maybe Rossi (who *is* the GOAT IMO). It's really apparent based on how I read your posts (I'm not objective here either mind) that you don't want to give Stoner credit for what he's achieved. I would have thought that the fact that The Ben™ and Stoner are buddies and he has the respect of the vast majority of riders on the grid (if not verbally expressed in Rossi's case, he must have now realized what crazy shit Stoner had to do to be winning on the GP10) including Lorenzo would lead some of his detractors to be a little less critical.

I don't think he's the GOAT and I don't think he has a shot at it unless his domination from this year continues. I don't even think *he* thinks he's the GOAT, he is measuring himself (at least publicly) against Mick Doohan who no one argues was the GOAT.

I get frustrated because people (not just you by any means) take a really dim view of Stoner because "he's a whinger". Rossi had plenty to say about Stoner's whinging until he actually had to ride the bike and found that everything Stoner was "whinging" about was true. Burgess said he could fix the bike in 80 seconds, how'd that work out for him? Bloody long 80 seconds if you ask me.

To your specific comment, I don't see anywhere, at any point (unless I missed something which is entirely possible) where Stoner has received any undue preferential treatment. No team orders, no special parts, nothing. Your suggesting it is why I reacted the way I did because it's just conjecture at best and is another example of people talking about Stoner in a really negative way because they don't like him. I'm not intending to attack you personally of course but I think your statement is weak at best.

but it wasn't a totally different bike.  it was an evolution of the honda motogp machine. 

they may have really screwed up the power delivery of the 800 at first/hypothesized that the switch to 800s would be different than it was (or that ducati wasn't going to show up with a computer attached to a rocket), but they didn't fire all the pre-2007 engineers and start acting like a totally different company before they began, either.

however re credit where it's due, agree.  1 hour into day 1 of 2011 testing last year (nov 2010), i assumed stoner was going to win the title this year.  both he and honda deserve all that credit.  and then there's the serendipity that it worked that well straight away.

Everything I ever wanted to say about Stoner but never had the vocabulary or grasp of the English language, well done evilsteve 

Here's for hopping on the Oz bandwagon!  ;D Stoner did what Rossi couldn't.   [thumbsup][thumbsup]

And DP, Go Mladin!  [laugh]
 

Thankfully, he's retired. ;)

  [laugh]

I give him credit....he is FAST...he had the BEST machine on the grid and utilized its every advantage and capability with his riding and pretty much dominated the 2011 season!!!...credit given where credit is due...

 
personal relationships and professional opinions don't necessarily equate to performance and criticism of said performances...especially when we here are just a general bunch of bench bullshitters in comparo....not like our opinions are going to land on the world feed somewhere...so we can afford to be a little more swayed in any direction we prefer, especially when we don't see things that these guys do, and chalk it up to a level of uninvolved ignorance...


it is hard to break away from an opinion that has been developed over an expanded time period in less time than it took to forge due to the actions for to make that opinion from....1 year of great riding performance on an awesome machine with some minor level of whining (no where near as much as when he was in the Duc camp) doesn't outweigh the past couple/few years of previous whining, despite what it was about and its validation...it takes time to break a mold and/or opinion that someone is pidgeonholed into....it isn't an overnight thing and probably never will be...as an example, look at the level of bashing that we do on Smurfy McPintsize that has decreased over the last year in comparison...


as far as liking him...I'll admit, I am not a fan of HIM, but I am a fan of his riding...when he is on, he is ON!....as far as HRC giving him special parts, whether they did or not, we will never know...but I seem to recall a greater emphasis on him and his data at the mid season testing point for 2nd gen/half of the 2011 seasons machinery than Dani's being reported by all media....as far as favoritism, the only thing I can say is that HRC is famous for prioritizing who is on top in their camp in terms of who's quotes are 1st in the press release, and I think all along it was Casey at the top of the bat...but in the end, it is my simple conjecture that I am expelling outward here, and maybe some agree...and maybe some don't...doesn't much matter to me...but at least there is a reasonable basis for where I am coming from in my thought process for me to personally extract in what I am have read from many media outlets that supply information to the public...

To me, when people say someone is "whinging" I take that to have a negative connotation which implies that they're exaggerating or inventing the problem or overstating its effects. Maybe you have a different view of what "whinging" means.

The special parts/more focus thing is common to any team and any rider in a situation where they have to prioritize according to available resources. Don't see many people complaining about Rossi getting better parts than Nicky? I'm pretty sure they started prioritizing Stoner's input because Pedrosa was broken and Stoner was fighting for the championship by the early stages of the season. I dont see how anyone can fault him or HRC for that. I'm sure, if Pedrosa was getting screwed over, we'd be hearing about it loud and clear from Puge. Dovi screwed himself and was always on the way out.

People, yourself included, use reasoning to explain their dislike for Stoner that applies equally to many riders in GP but the conclusions are different. That leads me to the conclusion that the core issue is Stoner's personality which rubs people the wrong way and everything else is justification of an emotional reaction.

You and everyone else are welcome to their opinion but I feel the line is crossed when unsubstantiated claims are stated as fact and subsequent conclusions are drawn to support the already held opinion.

I'm not going to keep ranting about it anymore. I don't want to stifle discussion, I just wanted to make the point that when you say something like (I'm paraphrasing) "with Supo in the team, he'll get preferential treatment", that's just wrong. If Stoner is getting preferential treatment, he's getting it for the same reason that every other rider gets preferential treatment - he's got the best chance of winning the championship and is based on a completely logical and reasonable decision in the team.

http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20111213#pg56 (http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20111213#pg56)

Rossi talking about the GP11 but saying something about Stoner.

He just ate crow. I think his comments were made to get under Stoner's skin. I think everyone in the paddock knew that the bike was crap.

Your right, everyone new the bike was crap, but Rossi's ego being what it is thought he could tame the bike, I mean why not he's the GOAT right? and if Stoner can win on it then surely Rossi could, Wrong.
Maybe next year with the new frame.

I still can't believe Ducati is betting it's WSBK-farm on this same frame design.

Correction, they are betting the farm on the design + tires of their choice.

well, I can, because the torque,power, and torsional forces are different between the V4 D16RR based motor and the V-twin evolutionary lump....that and the fact the the stressed member steering head is not CF like the MotoGP derivation, so the feel and input should be different....and Troy Bayliss I am sure was under no pressure to give them sweet smoke blown up their ass in the development process, so I am sure he told them exactly what he thought and felt because it was behind closed doors in the backroom of Corsa....so I think they are not comparable situations as far as the GP11 and the 1199.  

actually the front is AL just like the version they used later in the MotoGP bike. so yes, they are similar tech. and that didn't work for the bike. BUT I do see that Bayliss rode the hell out of the bike. But Stoner rode the hell out of the GP bikes as well.

I'll just hold my praise for the new bike til it proves itself on the track.

You simply can't compare MotoGP to WSBK. It's just so far between them that it's impossible to even make an attempt. We shall see when we see.

 [thumbsup]

Not to vear off topic target, but I wonder what Checa thinks about the 1199? You damn well know he's tested it too. And you are right, Bayliss would shoot straight. If it was a piece of shit he would have pulled in after 2 laps and told them so.

On topic, I just don't think anyone but Stoner could do what he did with their MotoGP bikes. Don't know why or how but I just feel that way. Hayden is a trooper and hard worker and what else can be said about Rossi? If those two couldn't find the cure no one could. What does that say about Stoner? [popcorn] Given a better bike look what he did this year! [thumbsup] [Dolph] [beer]

all things being relative (experience, equipment, etc) he showed this kind of speed, or promise of, in 2006 also.

re the ducati, the thing that makes stoner a very unique GP rider is he doesn't give a yank what the bike is doing.  most other GP riders are quite the opposite.

My attitude toward Stoner has not changed in the slightest, i.e., I still wanna sleep with his wife.

even, like, now..?

Yup.  Cuz that's how I roll (an in this case, there might be actually rolling involved).   [evil]

If there was a like button I would have clicked it.  ;D

 [laugh]

http://www.motomatters.com/interview/2011/12/19/casey_stoner_interview_on_riding_fast_em.html (http://www.motomatters.com/interview/2011/12/19/casey_stoner_interview_on_riding_fast_em.html)

Great read.  I may have to like him slightly after that article.   ;D

some very smart non-antagonistic questions that got great answers....

Great read; Stoner has long reminded me of something Nikki Lauda said to explain his success - something like "I have the most sensitive ass in Formula One," by which he meant that he could sense exactly what the car was doing and how close he was to the edge, and how to recover when he went over that edge.

That really seems to come through with Stoner in this interview -- that intuitive, natural sense of what the bike's up to and what the interviewer calls muscle memory to ride around it.

Good article. Thanks.  [thumbsup]

and then blurbs like this come out....

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Dec/111229b.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Dec/111229b.htm)

Don't really see that as being all that douchey.  After all, Vale & Burgess were talking quite a bit of smack about Casey and were proved wrong.  I can understand how this victory would be all the sweeter for Casey.

Nothing at all wrong with what he said IMO. He's just telling the truth.

there is just a certain snideness from it is all....

Good read. He's smart and growing up. More straight up and not whiney.

Talks cheap, he should've smacked Rossi in the mouth after Laguna and the crash last year. Fans will forgive and respect a tough guy/hardass, but maybe not someone who looks like they're whining.

I tell ya, Gibernau lost his chance at the championship, when he got all whiney after Rossi punted him into the scrub after that pass. On the way to the podium he had his chance to smack him but he complained abouwt his sthore shoulder to Rossi instead of belting him, and from that moment he lost the championship. Rossi knew he could get away with it and had the mental advantage.

How's this relevant? I think Stoner is beginning to understand this stuff.

+1 He was reacting to direct comments. Ducati has proven that they could not make it any better by going backwards. If anything it proves that Ducati engineers did not care what the riders feedback was until Vale appeared.

And that, up until Rossi walked through the door seemed to be the Mentality of Ducati, The Machine is perfect, it is the Rider that is flawed, how does that kind of thought process win races? it doesn't unless you get some kind of freak like Casey who could ride around the problems of the Desmosidici (and let's be honest, he is a bit of a freak because no one else has been able to master the recalcetrent Bike)

If I had to deal with that day in day out, I know I would have been considered a whiny little pregnant dog!  ;D

Still amazes me to see the Backflip that Ducati has done since Rossi has walked through the door and said the bike handles like a big piece of Poo!

That is the reason Rossi left Honda I recall

And the reason Rossi didn't go to Ducati back then as well.

Be good to see Stoner win it again and then Ducati chase him. Then he could really prove a point, but in reality he'd be crazy to leave Honda.