04 620, 50k miles, Goldline masters.
so today when I got to work as I'm pulling into the garage I notice I can't get any clutch action. that is, with the lever pulled to the bar, the engine still wants to go forward. Consequently low speed maneuvers were impossible.
I dicked around with it at lunch to no effect really. Figured I'd give it a shot and see what happens. I noticed the problem only presented itself if i kept the clutch pulled in. If I just clutch/shift in quick succession everything's fine.
I'd made no changes to the bike between Friday when i last rode, to this morning.
Got home, flushed out the clutch fluid. No change.
One thing I did notice, as soon as I pulled the lever a tiny bit, a little fluid spurted into the fluid cup. I don't know if that's good or bad, but I thought the fluid should be going the other direction. I adjusted the return screw thing all the way out and no change. I did notice as soon as I pull the lever the MC piston is immediately being pushed by the lever (again, not sure if that's good or bad, I thought there should be some free play).
It seems to me that I'm losing hydraulic pressure somewhere but I found no leaks or anything else amiss.
any suggestions?
Sounds like you may have air in the system.
well I think I found the problem.
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/s720x720/599913_4355302325957_1855822339_n.jpg)
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/376926_4355302005949_1395018963_n.jpg)
you can't see very well in that bottom one, but the orings are destroyed. The 'inside' one isn't as bad, but the outside one is just demolished.
Anyone know if a 'rebuild' kit can be obtained? I looked at motowheels, monster parts, and ca cycleworks but didn't see one. Don't remember where I got the slave from, but my guess is one of those 3. edit: actually I think I got it from desmo times. checking with them.
nice. I've learned evo went out of business a couple months ago. So I suppose I'm shit out of luck with a beautifully machined clutch slave that is now a beautifully machined paper weight.
One theory I've been told is the only thing that would eat the orings is if the clutch rod spun the piston. Which means I'm even more screwed. /sigh
Motostrano still lists the Evo slave cylinder as in stock, they may have a re-build kit for it:
http://www.motostrano.com/Evoluzione-Ducati-Clutch-Slave-Cylinder-p/9004xx.htm (http://www.motostrano.com/Evoluzione-Ducati-Clutch-Slave-Cylinder-p/9004xx.htm)
Same with Desmo Times:
http://www.desmotimes.com/product12.htm (http://www.desmotimes.com/product12.htm)
If the rod is spinning check your pressure plate bearing, that's a standard bearing and an easy swap.
Quote from: Peggy on July 25, 2012, 02:49:04 AM
Motostrano still lists the Evo slave cylinder as in stock, they may have a re-build kit for it:
http://www.motostrano.com/Evoluzione-Ducati-Clutch-Slave-Cylinder-p/9004xx.htm (http://www.motostrano.com/Evoluzione-Ducati-Clutch-Slave-Cylinder-p/9004xx.htm)
Same with Desmo Times:
http://www.desmotimes.com/product12.htm (http://www.desmotimes.com/product12.htm)
If the rod is spinning check your pressure plate bearing, that's a standard bearing and an easy swap.
Actually desmo times is where I bought it and was informed they're out of business and no rebuild kits. I didn't see it on motostrano, I must've mis-searched.
What confuses me... the evo slave had a bearing in it to counteracts this problem with the rod spinning, yet here I am. The bearing seems fine, i can spin it with my finger inside the piston... I specifically got that one so I wouldn't have to worry about it.. /sigh
anyone have recommendation for a new slave? I was considering the oberon, but are the stm/et al that much better?
thanks
I like my yoyodyne slave a lot and they have a lifetime guaratee on it... if it ever goes bad, send it back and they will replace it for free.
http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=D002 (http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=D002)
Quote from: thought on July 25, 2012, 04:04:32 PM
I like my yoyodyne slave a lot and they have a lifetime guaratee on it... if it ever goes bad, send it back and they will replace it for free.
http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=D002 (http://www.yoyodyneti.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=D002)
I've heard anecdotally they leak. Any experience like that? By chance do you know the diameter of the piston?
thanks for the tip about the guarantee.. whose lifetime I suppose is the question? ;)
Quote from: Privateer on July 25, 2012, 05:39:09 PM
I've heard anecdotally they leak. Any experience like that? By chance do you know the diameter of the piston?
thanks for the tip about the guarantee.. whose lifetime I suppose is the question? ;)
No leaking so far on my sf. And not sure about that diameter, I think you'll have to ask that about that.
Haha, and it says it's lifetime of the original buyer. ;)
Quote from: Peggy on July 25, 2012, 02:49:04 AM
Motostrano still lists the Evo slave cylinder as in stock, they may have a re-build kit for it:
http://www.motostrano.com/Evoluzione-Ducati-Clutch-Slave-Cylinder-p/9004xx.htm (http://www.motostrano.com/Evoluzione-Ducati-Clutch-Slave-Cylinder-p/9004xx.htm)
Motostrano doesn't have any rebuild kits either. so I guess it's a new slave. awesome.
Quote from: Privateer on July 26, 2012, 09:20:37 PM
Motostrano doesn't have any rebuild kits either. so I guess it's a new slave. awesome.
You may find that stock o-rings from a hardware store fit
Quote from: Peggy on July 27, 2012, 02:30:42 AM
You may find that stock o-rings from a hardware store fit
I did consider that, but i'm concerned what the chemicals the orings might encounter would do to them.
I think most o-rings you find easily will be nitrile and brake fluid shouldn't bother them. It's worth a shot
anyone have a recommendation for a replacement throwout bearing? Dealer wants $62.something for a OEM bearing.
Considering the dry clutch bearing is $9 from ca-cycleworks... $65 is a tough pill to swallow.
I can't seem to find them at our vendors.
Any suggestions?
Does the bearing have a manufacturer and part number on it? If so, it can be matched at a bearing store.
You can prob call Chris at ca cycleworks and ask him if the dry clutch bearing would work... I was going to suggest that one till I realized you had a wet clutch.
Quote from: thought on August 01, 2012, 08:48:21 PM
You can prob call Chris at ca cycleworks and ask him if the dry clutch bearing would work... I was going to suggest that one till I realized you had a wet clutch.
yeah i actually had that in my shopping cart on their website before I realized it was dry clutch.
Quote from: howie on August 01, 2012, 08:38:26 PM
Does the bearing have a manufacturer and part number on it? If so, it can be matched at a bearing store.
Howie, the parts guy at my local dealer did give me the dimensions of the bearing. i wasn't sure if that would be enough info or if I needed a special one with magical ducati pixie dust. i haven't popped out the old one, haven't had time to tear into it, planning that for tomorrow night. I'll report back if I can find anything conclusive.
so I finally had time to work on it.
I was able to get the bearing and the... perch.. (sorry don't know the technical term for the end the rod goes into).. out of the clutch side. The bearing seems to spin fine in my hands, I don't know if that means anything or not.
so 1) how does one get this push rod end thing out of the bearing itself?
2) on the side of the bearing it says 5kf-Italy 17 ***z 6201/C3L The guy at the local ducati dealer gave me these measurements: 12x32x10. A buddy of mine pointed me at www.allballsracing.com (//http://) but I didn't see anywhere to pic bearings by generic sizes.
Any suggestions on 1 and 2 above?
1) It just pushes out, you may need a hammer and punch.
2) 6201 is the size code, any bearing shop should have one.
Most convenient to get one without seals.
If they only have sealed ones, you can pry the seals out.
Quote from: Speeddog on August 05, 2012, 05:48:25 PM
1) It just pushes out, you may need a hammer and punch.
2) 6201 is the size code, any bearing shop should have one.
Most convenient to get one without seals.
If they only have sealed ones, you can pry the seals out.
thanks nick. I used the magical Google tool and found this: http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit9833 (http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit9833)
which is like 5 miles from my house. checking to see if they accept walk ins.
Note the price opposed to the $62 the dealer quoted me.
Left work early and picked up my bearings (they were cheap enough I bought a spare). Got the new bearing installed, clutch back together, new gaskset, new pushrod orings. started the engine, rod did not spin (not sure if that's a valid test).
installed new clutch slave, bled clutch, rode around the cul-de-sac and everything seems good.
Needs a valid shakedown run, but seems OK.
Replacing the belts since I have it apart and I didn't do it at 48k and the horiz belt seems kind of loose. Otherwise seems OK.
torque on the clutch spring retaining bolts seemed kind of low, 6ft lbs?
Huh, the ones we sell for dry clutch are 6201. We'll need to make a note of that somewhere. Pretty sure the modern fancy wet clutches are different. The parts catalog PDFs make some fascinating reading...
/nerd
perhaps I spoke too soon.
rode to work everything seemed fine. In the afternoon, however, if I held the clutch in for an extended period say at a stop light, it would start creeping forward and then stall as soon as I let off the lever.
/sigh
kind of at a loss at this point, unless I screwed up the bearing somehow seating the post (whatever it's called).
Quote from: chris on August 09, 2012, 12:46:04 AM
Huh, the ones we sell for dry clutch are 6201. We'll need to make a note of that somewhere. Pretty sure the modern fancy wet clutches are different. The parts catalog PDFs make some fascinating reading...
they're the same 6201 but the dry clutch ones have the dust shields or whatever they are. The description on your site said "all dry clutch", I didn't know if that would make a difference so I went with what was visually the same (link above).
A sealed bearing typically has the RS suffix.
Sealed both sides is 2RS.
Open would be a C3 or similar.
What did you do about the slave cylinder?
Easy to convert 2RS sealed bearing into unsealed type: use small screw driver and pry out rubber shield. [beer]
Quote from: Speeddog on August 09, 2012, 06:09:00 PM
What did you do about the slave cylinder?
replaced it with an oberon. I'm hoping my commute today didn't destroy it.
How many miles/years on that clutch master.
I'd say it's leaking internally....
Quote from: Speeddog on August 09, 2012, 08:33:03 PM
How many miles/years on that clutch master.
I'd say it's leaking internally....
it's funny you say that; when I was in the shower this morning I was thinking maybe there was some kind of pressure leak that wasn't resulting in fluid escaping.
I bought the masters from someone here and they have an unknown history.
i poked around this morning and found this: http://www.bevelheaven.com/stuff-for-sale-brembo.htm (http://www.bevelheaven.com/stuff-for-sale-brembo.htm)
i've looked my masters over but never really found any numbers on it, it seems there are different kits for the piston size, anyway to figure out what I have?
Quote from: Privateer on August 10, 2012, 06:12:53 AM
it's funny you say that; when I was in the shower this morning I was thinking maybe there was some kind of pressure leak that wasn't resulting in fluid escaping.
I bought the masters from someone here and they have an unknown history.
i poked around this morning and found this: http://www.bevelheaven.com/stuff-for-sale-brembo.htm (http://www.bevelheaven.com/stuff-for-sale-brembo.htm)
i've looked my masters over but never really found any numbers on it, it seems there are different kits for the piston size, anyway to figure out what I have?
Look on the underside to see if the size is stamped.
It is on the coffin models.
Quote from: ducpainter on August 10, 2012, 06:23:42 AM
Look on the underside to see if the size is stamped.
It is on the coffin models.
here's what I found:
(http://www.twoslow.com/images/clutch_0007A.jpg)
(http://www.twoslow.com/images/clutch_0006A.jpg)
Quote from: Privateer on August 10, 2012, 05:54:03 PM
here's what I found:
(http://www.twoslow.com/images/clutch_0007A.jpg)
(http://www.twoslow.com/images/clutch_0006A.jpg)
That adds to my confusion... :P
I'd say 13 mm, but I'm guessing.
Yoyodyne has some pics and listings of kits...with a disclaimer... http://www.yoyodyneti.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=3016 (http://www.yoyodyneti.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=3016)
Give them a call, or use the info to correlate with what you have.
That's a 12mm master.
Quote from: Speeddog on August 10, 2012, 06:07:51 PM
That's a 12mm master.
Listen to him...
I don't think he's guessing. ;D
Quote from: Speeddog on August 10, 2012, 06:07:51 PM
That's a 12mm master.
thanks Nick. Do you have a recommendation on where to buy the rebuild kit?
I'd try Yoyodyne first.
Also possible to get it from a KTM dealer, AFAIK.
apparently I'm hosed. Yoyodyne says the masters I have are not rebuildable.
just effing great.
Quote from: Privateer on August 13, 2012, 08:08:55 PM
apparently I'm hosed. Yoyodyne says the masters I have are not rebuildable.
just effing great.
Check with KTM.
If that doesn't get you anywhere, give me a call.
I've got a goldline master that's in need of a rebuild as well.
thanks.
I dug out my old coffin master to see if I could get that to work so I can at least get back on the road. Got it hooked up and plumbed, just need to bleed it out real good and see if I can get it adjusted right.
When I was trying to pump fluid down the line when I'd squeeze the lever it would shoot a fountain of fluid out if I let the lever go too quick. I don't remember that happening before. normal?
Normal, that's the return to let fluid back into the reservoir.
Quote from: Peggy on August 15, 2012, 02:51:05 AM
Normal, that's the return to let fluid back into the reservoir.
thanks.
I guess I don't remember it being forceful enough to hit me in the face.
Now if I could just get the clutch to fully disengage when I pull the lever...
i give up.
[thumbsdown]
alright.
some progress. Apparently I just needed to take the weekend off.
I swapped in my coffin res master and OEM slave cylinder and it seems to run OK, just around the block. I need a proper shake down to ensure the clutch is engaging fully, I suppose.
I wonder if the coffin m/c has enough 'power' to push the oberon piston.
I have a call into the local KTM dealer to see if they have rebuild kits. If they don't reply to my email in the next couple days I'm going to stop by on the way home from work and ask why they're ignoring me.
stopped by the local KTM dealer today and explained the situation. kid at the parts counter found the only 13mm rebuild kit they had and the piston looked NOTHING like the one out of my m/c. At $36 I wasn't comfortable buying it and experimenting.
I'm starting to get the feeling I'm ass out and will just have to buy a new master cylinder.
poking around on ebay I found this:
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/NEW-KTM-BREMBO-FRONT-MASTER-CYLINDER-REBUILD-KIT-125-540-CC-2001-04-50313008300-/00/s/MTI4M1gxNTAy/$(KGrHqJ,!l4E-dtfzOG,BPorB3Wwe!~~60_1.JPG)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-KTM-BREMBO-FRONT-MASTER-CYLINDER-REBUILD-KIT-125-540-CC-2001-04-50313008300-/230841443470?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35bf38e48e&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-KTM-BREMBO-FRONT-MASTER-CYLINDER-REBUILD-KIT-125-540-CC-2001-04-50313008300-/230841443470?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35bf38e48e&vxp=mtr)
that piston looks the same as mine, and the 'big' spring too' but the wrong size.
rebuilding the master is out.
If I am scrounging for a new m/c on ebay, will any piston size work?
Quote from: Privateer on September 16, 2012, 08:33:48 AM
rebuilding the master is out.
If I am scrounging for a new m/c on ebay, will any piston size work?
The larger the piston size the better it will work with an aftermarket slave. If you have an aftermarket slave of course.
I wouldn't go any smaller than what you already have.
Quote from: ducpainter on September 16, 2012, 01:56:55 PM
The larger the piston size the better it will work with an aftermarket slave. If you have an aftermarket slave of course.
I wouldn't go any smaller than what you already have.
thanks, that's what I figured but I wanted to verify. as much as people want for a used one, I might be better off buying new from yoyodyne.
Quote from: Privateer on September 16, 2012, 03:07:19 PM
thanks, that's what I figured but I wanted to verify. as much as people want for a used one, I might be better off buying new from yoyodyne.
That's what I'd do.
You are on the road though, so you have some time to wait for a deal...correct?
Quote from: ducpainter on September 16, 2012, 03:22:47 PM
That's what I'd do.
You are on the road though, so you have some time to wait for a deal...correct?
technically my bike works, but I have a leaking fork seal I've been ignoring since end of May and it's about time I actually fix it. I wanted to do the k-tech upgrade in the process but it's prohibitively expensive for me.
hm would a radial master off a hypermotard work?
Quote from: Privateer on September 18, 2012, 11:10:43 PM
hm would a radial master off a hypermotard work?
Why not?
got my new master cylinder
(http://www.ocmoto.com/gallery/8278-260912165540.jpeg)
Should do the trick.
whoever figured out to put a bleeder nipple on the master should receive the nobel prize.
hypermotard master and new slave cylinder installed. seemed to work around riding around my cul de sac.
I need to put new connectors on the clutch switch thing, but mine's been disconnected for two years so no harm there.
Otherwise, looks like I'm on the road to recovery. thanks everyone for your help. My Visa card is pissed, but my soul is happy.
shakedown run this morning seemed successful.
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/261917_4659269444945_1200558059_n.jpg)
Quote from: Privateer on September 28, 2012, 09:17:11 PM
whoever figured out to put a bleeder nipple on the master should receive the nobel prize.
hypermotard master and new slave cylinder installed. seemed to work around riding around my cul de sac.
I need to put new connectors on the clutch switch thing, but mine's been disconnected for two years so no harm there.
Otherwise, looks like I'm on the road to recovery. thanks everyone for your help. My Visa card is pissed, but my soul is happy.
You can fix the Visa...
On the road again.... ;D
Now you need the matching radial brake master.
:P
Quote from: Speeddog on September 29, 2012, 11:07:08 AM
Now you need the matching radial brake master.
:P
let's cross that bridge when we get to it :)
I'd rather get an oil cooler before I do that one.
after riding for a week now, one thing I've noticed.. I formerly had some lag when cracking the gas at highway speed. Tach would spin up, but the speedo wouldn't take a while to get there. Replacing the master seems to have resolved that issue.
so I crimped on some bullet connectors to the clutch switch on the HM master, tried plugging it in both ways into the monster's wiring, but still won't start when I put in gear and pull the clutch in.
Any ideas?
Either check the switch for continuity or touch the two wires to the switch and see if the bike starts I'm not familiar with that radial set up. Any adjustment?
Quote from: howie on October 11, 2012, 08:36:30 PM
Either check the switch for continuity or touch the two wires to the switch and see if the bike starts I'm not familiar with that radial set up. Any adjustment?
I used my multimeter on the bullet connectors I put on the HM wires. I had nothing with the clutch out, pulled it in and I got a different result, so the switch seemed to be doing something.
I didn't try jumping the monster end of the wires, however. I'll try that tomorrow.
I figured a switch is a switch. /shrug